**This information was reported here 4 months before Abraham Hicks confirmed my source's intel.
Several weeks ago, Abraham Hicks released a letter from Jerry and Esther, stating that they were cancelling various workshops for reasons involving a "spider bite that Jerry got in Florida." Later, in another letter, the Hickses wrote that Jerry was undergoing "heavy chemo," but never explained what for. The intentional vagueness of these letters left many wondering what Jerry's mystery illness could be. Today, I was informed by a source close to the Hickses that Jerry has been receiving his chemo treatments for leukemia.
For over 25 years, Jerry has traveled the country, promoting the Teachings of Abraham, which advocate a person's ability to prevent and cure disease solely by changing one's thoughts. Regardless of these claims, it appears the teachings have been useless in helping Jerry prevent himself from attracting leukemia. And rather than exclusively using the ideas that the Teachings of Abraham claim can bring the body into perfect alignment from any illness, Jerry has opted to treat his leukemia with conventional medicine.
This should come as some surprise to fans of the teachings, many who are purchasing them in hopes of attracting wellness and perfect health into their own lives. One would think that Jerry's situation would leave them wondering: can these teachings really create perfect health, or is it all a sham?
Dave Stone is discussing this @ Jerry Hicks Cancer Confirmed as Leukemia and Does Jerry Hicks Cancer Mean the end of Abraham-Hicks?
UPDATE: Jerry and Esther finally discuss this in their recent blog post, making plenty of excuses to satisfy any discomfort their fans may feel.
There is a lot of evidence for mind over matter and I’m not talking about in the woo woo court. So either mind over matter doesn't work or Jerry has been marketing the message and not even putting his little toe into the essence of the teachings.
ReplyDeleteStill, the Hicks had an opportunity to present this as a learning experience for all those that have trusted them for so long. Instead they chose to do smoke and mirrors to keep the Abeway cash cow going. While members of the Abe flock at the ever so popular Abe forum reassure inquiring minds Jerry is just fine home watching gleefully the ‘live’ events a huge ball is getting ready to drop. I wonder how much David Gordon knows since he is part of the inner circle. Some story will probably surface about respecting Jerry's privacy at this delicate juncture ya da. Some of the flock will buy this bc it’s easier to have someone think for you than to think for yourself. Still the message won't have quite the same punch will it? Like where is Abe in all of this, where indeed.
Hey there Clarity ; ),
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
From what I've heard, I'm sure several of the Abe-elite are in "the know" about the situation. And to answer your rhetorical question: I think Abe is in the same place as Peter Pan and Harry Potter...in fiction ; )
Peter Pan and Harry Potter...
ReplyDeleteNext you're going to tell me there's no Santa Claus.
I hate you~
Woah, woah, Clarity! Let the record show that I have yet to start a Santa Claus Skeptic blog. But now that you mention it...*idea!*
ReplyDeleteRemember one of their little mantras?
ReplyDeleteHappy Healthy Happy Healthy Happy Healthy....Croak....
Ah well...
So much for that one...
I feel sad for the Hicks on a personal level...I wish illness on no one.
But isn't it time for them to cut the bullshit already and level with everyone once and for all?
Life is not all lollipops and puppies and sunshine.
And that's okay!!
Dying is part of the human condition.
Our bodies age and decay.
Our mortality, our finite time on this earth, is part of what makes life precious.
That, along with CARING ABOUT ONE ANOTHER and NOT LOOKING THE OTHER WAY when we see someone suffering.
The Hicks are teaching cowardice and narcissism. Their way is not the path to nirvana or enlightenment or truth or anything else. It's the path to nofuckingwhere.
While they laugh all the way to the bank time and again.
And I'm beyond grateful to Kyra for calling them out on their fakeass shit.
Hey Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
Oh yes, the good old "Happy healthy happy healthy happy healthy dead" bit. I remember it well. Unfortunately, it looks like Jerry's going to be living the far more common "Scamming healthy scamming healthy scamming seriously ill dead."
Caring about one another? Not looking the other way? What kind of nonsense is this? How will this keep me in my vortex? How will that help me manifest everything that I want? Getting everything I want isn't nirvana? Oh, Anonymous...I'm afraid you're going to have a hard time selling these mottos in the New Age section ; )
Thanks for the appreciation.
I sincerely hope Jerry isn't avoided by his loved ones now that he is ill, because according to Abraham:
ReplyDelete"Most healers eventually are trained by the sick people into their vibration rather than training the sick people into their vibration… And we say, in order for you to be of any value to anyone you have to separate yourself from the discordant beliefs that they hold about sickness... So what happens, people in need, they'll drag you out every time.
"They'll say, "I need you. Be here with me. You've gotta be there for me."
"There are people complaining or hurting, whether it's emotionally or physically, if you're not giving them sympathy, which means if you're not giving your undivided attention to their discomfort, then they don't believe that you're there for them. And you've gotta understand, whether you can make them understand or not, that you can't be there for their for their problem and there for their solution at the same time. You've gotta make a choice. You can't be there for their sickness and there for their wellness at the same time. A healer must be there for the wellness."
"...And as you hold fast to that knowledge and you practice it every day of your life relative to you and to everything that you see, eventually that vibration will be so powerful within you, that with anyone stands before you with their problem or their illness, you will have risen so far above it.
"And many of them will say, "Hey man, you're not there for me."
"And your answer must be to them, whether they hear it or not, "I'm there for you. I'm there where your recovery is. I'm there where your value is. I'm there where who you really are is. I'm there where your strength and vitality are. I practice my thoughts of your resiliency. I practice my thoughts of your well-being. I practice them incessantly. In fact I have trained myself so that I never allow myself to focus upon your plight or your illness even for a moment.
"And they will say, 'Well, it's not really helping very much.'
"And you must say and mean, 'I don't do it for you. I do it for me.'"
Hey theoreticalgrrrl,
ReplyDeleteEsther's been doing a pretty good job leaving Jerry to fend for himself while she continues giving Abraham workshops. There's even an Abraham Hicks "Vortex of Attraction" Alaskan cruise in just a few days, and a lot of people are wondering (myself included) whether or not Esther will be going alone. She might need a vacation after having been exposed to all Jerry's negative disease vibes.
Thanks for the comment, theoreticalgrrrl ; )
I can think of many times in my life when I was feeling down or physically sick and someone just being there for me made a huge difference, dare I say even speeded up my recovery. So I've defied the very Laws Of The Universe! I must be a witch.
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping for Jerry's full recovery, I can't imagine abandoning someone for doing something so inconvenient as getting sick.
theoreticalgrrrl,
ReplyDeleteSounds like sorcery to me.
Maybe sick people should be more considerate and not attract disease to begin with. Don't they realize I have better things to do with my time than help them get well? The nerve of some people!
Well done, Kyra for covering all this. The ideology the Hicks (et al) are pushing is a dangerous one, and because of their vested interest in making it as marketable as possible, they don't tell people of the inherent risks involved.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of whether or not there is any truth in in their pseudo-mystical concepts, the biggest lie of all is the way it is presented as "safe" and somehow "positive".
Jerry Hicks obviously doesn't believe his own schtick, because he has no trouble at all in instantly dropping it the moment it's his own ass on the line, and trying to cover it up James Ray style until the truth finally comes out.
For people who sincerely try to live by those teachings, it's not so easy to drop -- at least until they get the full story and realize they've been had.
I hope many of them continue to find your writings!
Hey Yakaru,
ReplyDeleteThank you for stopping by.
I absolutely agree. Jerry getting chemo demonstrates his lack of belief in all this stuff he's been promoting for the last 25 years. He knew better than to attempt to solely use the Abraham materials as a form of treatment (despite their offering suggestions and ideas on how to bring your body totally back into alignment without the need for conventional medicine).
When looking at this situation, I hope people not only think it's telling that Jerry is being treated by conventional medicine, but that they look at how Jerry and Esther attempted to avoid being open and honest about what was going on. If you look back at the letters they sent out, initially they were saying the reason for workshop cancellations involved "a spider bite." Later, another letter just mentioned the "heavy chemo" in passing. They didn't even say what the disease was. And even after that letter, they still used the one about the "spider bite" on their website for weeks. In recent workshops, Abe hasn't even discussed what is going on with Jerry. It's just incredibly shady how misleading Jerry, Esther, and "Abraham" have been about the whole situation.
And I do want to plug your blog, which has great great posts about James Arthur Ray: Spirituality is No Excuse
theoreticalgrrrl said...
ReplyDeleteI sincerely hope Jerry isn't avoided by his loved ones now that he is ill, because according to Abraham:
~
Well Jerry has become a liability. From the little I can glean so far on the Hicks camp I don’t know if there is any compassion among them. I would imagine, but how would I really know, that he finds himself in a pretty isolated space. Ester would be wise to get a little nip and tuck if she is going to continue to promote the rejuvenating effects of vibrational alignment. If you see any of the recent vids she looks like hell. She’s been going south for awhile but it’s really escalating as of late. Another thing I’ve noticed on the more recent vids is ‘Abe’ holds her stomach, um, like places her hands on the stomach like you do when you have indigestion. It’s a rather consistent thing now. I thought what, you can read the eye test for ester (a recent Abe story) but you can’t fix indigestion?
The interesting thing in all of this is to realize just how little the Hicks do understand about marketing. They could have been upfront with all of this much like when some public personality gets caught in bad behavior du jour, confesses and goes into rehab. I never knew there were so many rehabs available for simply bad character *smile*. Anyway, the Hicks could have done a true confessional without hurting the Abe promo…we know all the teachings and we know they work we simply didn’t do the lining up thing…and the flock would have applauded their honesty and loved them all the more. Instead they tried to hide something as obvious as leukemia and hope by ignoring the issue it would go away. This is bad marketing at its finest. The public loves true confessionals. It gives them a relatable point of reference. If the Hicks are reading this I’ve just given them ideas so if the true confessional happens you read it here first *wink*.
I also wonder, and I have nothing to base this on, just wondering from the way Ester’s face is ah changing…if she has taken up drink. The bags under her eyes are kidney issues. This is not woo woo btw. The puffiness of her face and the nose expanding…you often see this with drinking. Now granted it’s hard to think of a good Mormon girl taking to drink but then Ester is not the goody two shoes she presents herself to be. All this pure speculation so speculate at your own risk.
And I forgot to add (on the drinking thing) that is Abe holding the stomach bc of indigestion or is it a liver thing? Is Ester just gaining a lot of weight or is the swollen midriff a result of liver issues that come with heavy drinking? Ester's clothes are so baggy can't see the legs for certain but ‘looks like’ the majority of the weight gain is the middle section, the very pronounced belly area. Women traditionally gain weight in a pear shaped manner. What I'm seeing with Ester is more in alignment with ‘bird legs’ and swollen liver.
ReplyDeleteAgain, pure speculation.
I'm going to cross post this to the 'big 3' bc this is what abers are dealing with and more reason I think not spilling the beans (HIcks and whistleblowers alike) is unconscionable.
ReplyDeletePosted an hour ago on the Abe Forum. The Abe forum where David Gordon is not only dictated to by the Hicks but is a member of the inner circle and would most certainly know of Jerry's leukemia.
brokenhearted...
Usually I wouldn't post something like this, cause I hate to show this kind of weakness...but I don't really know what else to do right now. I am so brokenhearted...I'm sorry this is so OOTV...
I really want to die right now. I want to give up on everything. I am so brokenhearted. I feel like I am not happy here. I work on myself so much, I work on being happy and being the best version of me...but I feel like no matter what I do, things ultimately end up in the same place.
I am sooooooo brokenhearted. I keep coming so close to my dream and it looks like everything is gonna be amazing, and I am so excited and positive and confident (and I know that I am b/c I am really in touch with my emotions...).. and then it falls apart, badly. For no reason. I've been living this over and over for years. And I keep trying to just pick my head up and trust and let go and know things will work out...but then they don't and I don't get it.
And I know that what Marc would say is, well you must have a vibration of it or LOA wouldn't bring it to you....
and that's fine and good and I get it...But i don't know what else to do.I am sooo sad. I don't know why if there is only a stream of goodness, that all of the relaxing and releasing I have done over the last year or so, all of the being happier, all of the trusting that things will get better...I don't know why things don't just work out. It feels like a cruel fucking joke. I had like 5 major major opportunities with amazing news that mean the world to me that I was so excited about and then 5 horrible disappointments and shocking outcomes...
And each time I kept telling myself, that's okay, your so close. Who knows what little resistance is keeping you from this, but something better is coming. AND i was so proud of myself for being so positive about it and for trusting something else would come...and something new came along that was amazing. I was so excited, so soooo positive. So excited to work with this new amazing person who heard my music and loved it and was so nice and cool...and then, bam it falls apart for no reason. I felt sooo good, so confident, inspired, excited...I do not get it!
i am so tired of this...Why can't life just be good. why can't it just be easy. Why can't this just work, cause I deserve it, cause I am great at what I do, because I love this more than anything in the world. Why can't I just be happy, why can't life just work for me. Why can't this just be the amazing adventure that it is supposed to be..it shouldn't be this hard.
What the f*ck is wrong with me.....
I don't understand why on earth I wouldn't want to come here to live like this...It is so damn hard here. If there is a stream of goodness and love then where is it, and why is my absolute best at loving and living and dreaming and hoping and releasing and distracting and meditating and trusting in the universe not good enough....
I am so so so so sad...I love music. I just want to be happy. that's it. I just want to do what I love and be happy and give love to people and be happy. That's it...That's it....
Hey again Clarity,
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree that the Hickses could have found a way to use this situation to their advantage. In fact, I had assumed all along that they were going to do just that. Unfortunately for them, they have handled this situation very poorly.
As for Esther's appearance, I can agree that she's definitely not looking her best these days, but her comedic timing is still spot-on.
For inquiring minds if you want to read Marc's reply he points out where brokenhearted has not mustered to the challenge...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.abeforum.com/showthread.php?23940-brokenhearted...
And Marc is David's right hand man, a co admin. So Marc who would obviously know Jer has leukemia still perpetuating the ruse is so far off the charts for honestly boggles even me. Then again, what if David has not clued Marc in...even more boggling.
Someone wishing they were dead bc they can't get it right is a big deal in my world.
ps...tonycat, the member who proclaimed Abe is jesus a few weeks ago (on the forum, fascinating read *rolls eyes*) suggested masturbation as a possible solution for brokenhearted, then
ReplyDelete"get back to us when YOU'RE BACK!"
like don't post until you're itv.
sheesh~
Dear Kyra
ReplyDeleteI may not be your typical reader because I do actually believe in the "Law of Attraction". However their is not doubt in my mind that Abraham is a scam and gives bad advice. Since I do go to many LOA meetup groups I know the typical Abraham follower. And their answer to any problem is you need to feel good.
That said I really think you need to bring this story main stream. Do you have any idea how big this story would be if it go into main stream media. Ray is small potatoes compared to Abrascam. That is not a typo. Anyone that has a connection to news reporters should help Kyra bring this story to mass media.
John
Hey Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by. A lot of my readers actually do believe in LOA, interestingly enough.
In terms of their scale of influence, I completely agree with you that Abraham Hicks should be more high profile than James Arthur Ray. However, I think people dying at Ray's sweat lodge has a lot more mainstream appeal than people listening to a phony guru.
But word is getting out, slowly but surely.
Thanks again for the comment.
David Gordon told an Aber that Esther was going on the Alaskan cruise without Jerry and that the decision had been made weeks ago.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the update, Anonymous. It's gonna be a very different sort of cruise without Jerry. That'll be interesting to listen to.
ReplyDeleteYes, a different kinda cruise for sure. Considering the happy joyful marriage the Hicks parade around is not happy and joyful Ester will probably have a fine time doing solo. Certainly it was decided weeks ago. Jerry has leukemia, is an octogenarian undergoing heavy chemo, don’t expect to see him up and around any time soon. From what I hear thru the grapevine he doesn’t even pop in at the office to be his ‘zippidy do dah’ self sailing thru chemo.
ReplyDeleteDavid Gordon by his own admission is employed by the Hicks. He knows Jerry has leukemia and yet withholds this information from the flock he maintains for the Hicks on the Abe Forum. Just a few days ago a member started the thread Jerry Hicks has cancer?? And it was quickly deleted with this admonition~
I deleted the thread on Jerry's situation as it is not topic of Abraham Teachings and you. I've made a post before on this and closed the thread at that time. This thread happened at a time when moderators were not aware of it for a while. It would have been deleted at the thread starter. Anyone is welcome to PM me if there is a question about what is topic. Basically the topic is the teachings in any way, and not the personal lives of Jerry and Esther at any level other than the teachings themselves.
Thanks!
David
I didn’t expect the cruise would be cancelled because the kick back from the cruise line for an ‘event cruise’ is huge, like over 20 thousand, even much more according to ‘agreements’ including extra state rooms which is probably how David Gordon manages to go on so many cruises (along with a few others). Makes you wonder how deep the pockets go, Marc co admin on the Abe Forum, Leslie super mod? Anyone notice on the forum a paypal button and that people actually donate to the admins and moderator for personal use? They all have a stake in keeping the Abeway going. God forbid they would have to get real jobs.
Ester sans Jerry, her resentful hubby bc Ester gets all the attention, will have a fine time. Don’t you think it a bit strange to leave a seriously sick hubby to go on a cruise? Like, sorry you have cancer hon, but the show must go on ya know? Then again Abe says always look out for numero uno and Ester, David, all the inner circle entourage have taken the message to heart.
Bye bye hun, good luck with the cancer, see ya soon.
SERIOUS LIABILITY - BEYOND RAY
ReplyDelete>Please consider this expressed, screaming at the top of my lungs<
Kyra said: "However, I think people dying at Ray's sweat lodge has a lot more mainstream appeal than people listening to a phony guru."
WHAT ABOUT THE BODY COUNT OF THOSE WHO HAVE FOLLOWED ABRAHAM by waiting and *not* going to the doctor for fear of getting a diagnosis and "shining a spotlight" on the problem which always makes it bigger? (They've used these words for years.)
How many have died or gone through hell by waiting too long until the problem can no longer be ignored?
I am one of those. I just went through hell, fortunately I couldn't ignore my "manifestation" IN TIME! and was fortunately saved by the dreaded medical profession! This was just months ago.
I was a "poster child" for Abraham for 8 years, listening weekly--going to workshops. I had an Abraham app in my head! Totally immersed. Their quotes of not going to the doctor were programmed in my mind. I would urge my husband not to go--what if he'd had something fatal! And I didn't go for medical evaluation for 2 years ! (counting on getting my vibration "in alignment with well-being") to finally take care of it) until it couldn't be ignored and was ALMOST too late! ! !
HAD I KNOWN A YEAR AGO, THAT JERRY, FACED WITH A MEDICAL CONCERN, WOULD NOT ONLY IMMEDIATELY RUN TO THE MEDICAL PROFESSION BUT INSTANTLY CHOOSE CHEMO AS THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE, I WOULD'VE BEEN SAVED SURGERY and 2 MORE HOSPITALIZATIONS with complications, THE TERROR and SUFFERING OF ALL OF THAT, THE TERROR OF THE *REMAINING* ABRAHAM PROGRAMMING STILL PLAYING in my mind, and MEDICAL BILLS OF OVER $100,000!
(It's a damn good thing I didn't drop my medical insurance as Abraham loved to tell Jerry & Esther did! Although $5500 out-of-pocket and 4 months of missed work is nothing to discount!)
>>> THIS IS SERIOUS <<< HOW MANY MORE ARE LIKE ME IN THE THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS OF DEVOTED FOLLOWERS who waited--trying desperately to align their vibration and have become terribly ill, disabled or died BLAMING THEIR OWN VIBRATION?
HOW MANY DIDN'T HAVE BENEFIT AT THE TIME OF *KNOWING* EXACTLY WHAT JERRY WOULD DO IF HE WAS IN THEIR "PHYSICAL SHOES?"
That the Abrascam group expects and followers actually believe that Jerry would choose chemo over an "afternoon" w/Abraham" tells it all--their audacity and gall and the poor followers' programming--actually accepting that Abraham wouldn't tap Jerry on the shoulder, say, two years ago and say, "Uh, Jerry, you might wanna clean up this area of your vibration..." Abraham has said they warn Esther if there's a speed trap over the hill !
THERE'S LIABILITY HERE, but no bodies able to be counted. You're right, James Ray is nothing compared to Abrascam.
I can't say enough about this.
Thank you, Anonymous. You definitely express a sentiment that I feel. I've known many who have suffered tremendously--even died--because of the Abraham teachings. Even worse, these people who died blamed themselves for their deterioration. Unfortunately, the legal system doesn't seem to care too much about the body count of former Abraham adherents--or their suffering. They need something a little more solid like the James Arthur Ray scandal. While I agree with you completely in your assessment, I don't think the legal system is going to take the Abrahamscam seriously. That said, clearly, I am one who sees the tremendous detriment--even fatality--caused by these teachings. And I recommend your comment to anyone who thinks that these teachings don't lead to horribly fatalities.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment,
kyra
Although I used the words "liability," I actually didn't mean to imply *legal* liability. I meant MORAL liability.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am so sorry to hear that you too actually know of suffering and even death with self-blame because of "Abraham."
Like others have expressed...I feel sorry for anyone suffering and facing death--whether from illness or age. But my husband and I can't help wondering what Jerry must be thinking and feeling now that he has the time and reason to review all that has been done.
THANK YOU, KYRA, and to David Stone also, for holding strong the ongoing case against this Abrascam that has wreaked so much damage in so many different directions.
As much as I like poking fun at the Hicks bc I do believe they are as insincere as it gets, I think certain things are being overlooked in the name of ‘making a case’. For sake of differentiation I’ll call the on stage persona Abe to distinguish from Ester. I have seen on video Abe recommend to some ppl to go to the doctor, which was the path of least resistance. One woman was afraid to have a certain test, Abe said go have the test bc not knowing is causing you more grief than knowing. True Abe has also said some disparaging things about the medical profession but there are times they have said complementary things. I’m not going to round up all the quotes; it is there for those that look. To think clearly beyond (as much as possible) cogitative bias you don’t pick the information that makes your case, you look at all the information as an impartial observer.
ReplyDeleteI have known ppl that turned their health situation over to medical doctors and had the situation so botched it caused death. I’m not talking about ‘we tried and we failed’ I’m talking about out right botched. It is not uncommon. I have known ppl that went the conventional medical route and had fantastic results. I have friends who have reversed inoperable conditions, who were told to go home and get their affairs in order, reverse these conditions thru either alternative healing modalities or mind over matter. These have not been isolated instances. I have had other friends that tried mind over matter and didn’t pull it off. I have had friends go the alternative route and have it not work. There is no hard and fast about what works and what doesn’t. Each situation is unique and will respond in its own unique way. I will say if you want to go the mind over matter route it is a whole lot more than wishful thinking and putting on a happy face.
To me the bigger issue is that we don’t have enough faith in ourselves to believe we can know what is best. If we did we would not be going to someone else to do our thinking for us. If we went to a doctor we would ask more questions. If we went the alternative route we would ask more questions. We are too inclined to go to some ‘authority’ and have them provide the answers whether physical, emotional or spiritual.
I’m glad James Ray got prison time. I think he deserves it. However I have to question the mentality that would pay someone $10, 000 for 5 days in the desert being treated like shit. To me that is the epitome of not believing in yourself. I watched one of Ray’s promo talks today. Not one person was chained to their chair. They all sat there with rapt attention. Granted by the time of the Warrior retreat they were put in extreme conditions that broke down their limited thinking ability even more. Still when ppl were passing out why didn’t the others just help and pull them out? At what point do we abandon common sense? Don’t get me wrong, I think Ray is a scum bag of the highest order.
As far as scams go Abeway is one of the cheapest. When I look at the prices some of these operations charge I am positively dumbfounded. Any Aber that is pc savvy can find every bit of Abe (and I mean every last bit that is for sale) for free on the internet. Sure Jerry tries to shut down the sharing but the Abers go too bad, I’m following the teachings and it says I can do this, it is my right. At least with the workshop you get a lunch or for the pricier junkets you get a cruise with all you can eat.
cont~
I do acknowledge that ppl have been harmed from the teachings but I don’t see it as forced mind control but coming from a lack of faith in your own abilities. If anyone has listened to Abe for any length of time over and over it is said…you have your own connection to your knowing and you don’t need Ester or any of this. You have the power.
ReplyDeleteNow do the Hicks do slick marketing, sure. Is the endeavor done with some kind of altruistic motive, ha, not that I can see. That is why I have fun poking at the Hicks and why I think whistleblowers should blow more whistles. Certainly there are those who are debating breaking free and whistleblowing can help in that process. But like I read one post today from someone who broke free, immediately ran to the church and in two days was ‘saved’.
The only reason scams like this flourish is bc the market is there. The market is fed by ppl that don’t have enough faith in themselves to make their own decisions and form their own ideas of what life is about. It’s the same reason that doctors, politicians, spiritual ‘fill in the blank’ achieve a god like status bc ppl are looking for someone to follow instead of taking their own lead.
I am not diminishing the unfortunate stories that have been coming forward. I know it’s a bitch to realize you’ve been duped. The thing about being duped is you then have the opportunity to see where you want to sharpen your powers of perception…and move on. Grow from the experience and see what changes you can make in your life to be more aware. Maybe you feel the inclination to then help others see more clearly and believe in themselves. If you do then put your attentions to spreading the good news that we are much more capable that we think we are.
I was ‘into’ Abe for 2 years. My life improved vastly from applying some of the principles. It was the same with my friends. When the façade began to crumble we all said it was good, we got benefit and now expanding in new directions. When I heard something that didn’t resonate I said nope, doesn’t work for me. I know the teachings are not new. Then again everything ‘out there’ is built on something that was before. ‘Abe’ had information on how vibration works and when I applied it, worked for me. That the Hicks are really devious lying little scam artist gave me a few days of feeing sad because I like to believe the best in people but life goes on. Every day of my life I gain greater clarity. The times I am duped add to my clarity. When ppl finally get it how capable they really are then scams politically, religiously, medically, that have gone on for centuries will fade away.
Just maybe that is the bigger picture in all of this…that we remember who we are and our amazing capabilities.
Just sayin~
Hey Clarity,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
If you have cancer, and I mix a concoction and call it a cancer cure (despite it having no curative substance), that is deception. Even if I condone going to the doctor, the reality is that I have deceived you into thinking that this mixture will heal you (when I know perfectly well that's not the case). No matter what my opinion of doctors is, what I am doing is incredibly dangerous, and it is deceit. It is inexcusable, and the US justice system would certaintly hold me liable for people's deaths regardless of what my opion of the medical community was. This is what Abraham does. They offer something that they say can heal any illness. There's no proof it can do this. So while they may occassionally "condone" the medical community, they have made it perfectly clear that people can use their techniques for any illness and not need medical intervention at all.
Also, I cannot agree with you about the successes and failures of these two systems. First off, the medical community doesn't claim to anyone that they can heal everything or that they can prevent everything. The Abraham Hicks teachings do both. So, when the medical community fails, they have done so fully expecting a certain amount of failures. The Abraham Hicks teachings do not acknowledge failures. They only acknowledge successes. Second, the medical community can actually assess the effectiveness of what they are offering as treatment. In the Abraham Hicks teachings, there is nothing to show that these techniques can help. This is completely different than the medical community, which can show that there is effectiveness to their processes. And most importantly, if there's not, they're willing to change what they offer as treatment. Even chemo, which people blast all the time--cause it is rather barbaric--still has helped many people. But the medical community always lets people know there are risks. When have you heard Abraham Hicks talk about the risks of what they offer? I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Show me a medically verified case of these teachings being used so that a person was able to mentally heal themselves of HIV. The medical community doesn't claim to be able to do this, so they don't have to. The Abraham teachings claim they can help a person do this, and have actually specifically offered a suggestion to do so. So where is the person who has healed themself of this via Abraham's processes? Show me the verification for this and then we can talk as if there is benefit here.
Hey there Kyra~I’m not talking about ppl healing via Abe. I’m talking about ppl healing via mind over matter via their own understandings of the process. Studies have been done that show ppl with multiple personalities will have conditions via one personality that are absent in another personality. For inquiring minds the research is out there. Are these conventional medical professionals making it up…heck, I don’t have a clue, I just read.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the medical community, claims etc, again you missed my point. I’m talking about ppl being treated for relatively minor conditions and never making it out of the hospital. I have known of many personal situations of such. I have friends that completed medical school, have become successful doctors. They have told me how the pharmaceutical companies infiltrate the schools and influence curriculum. Chemo does not have to be practiced in the barbaric manner that is being practiced here in this country. You and I have had this discussion privately. The only reason it is being practiced in the manner it is here is monetary incentives period. I was surprised that Jerry went for heavy chemo bc with his wealth he could actually go to clinics in Europe, mainstream conventional clinics, that use a much milder form of chemo and get astoundingly better results. In Europe the also practice a much milder form of radiation again with much better results.
While I do understand your indignation over the Abe materials, really I do, all I am saying is scams like this perpetuate and have for centuries bc ppl are looking for someone to lead them instead of taking their own lead. It’s not against the law to give bad advice. When it becomes against the law all the politicians save a few will be out of work.
I believe I made it perfectly clear how I feel about the Hicks. However someone saying
“HAD I KNOWN A YEAR AGO, THAT JERRY, FACED WITH A MEDICAL CONCERN, WOULD NOT ONLY IMMEDIATELY RUN TO THE MEDICAL PROFESSION BUT INSTANTLY CHOOSE CHEMO AS THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE, I WOULD'VE BEEN SAVED SURGERY and 2 MORE HOSPITALIZATIONS”
cont~
I'm saying if you base your decisions on what someone else would do then it's time to look at your own decision making process. I have a friend, a personal friend, and this is all medically verified, that was told in 06 she would need open heart surgery. She said fine let's do it. The insurance company however said we need you to get ‘near death’ before we will approve the surgery. There was nothing left for her to do (and she was highly motivated) than to try ‘mind over matter’. 5 years later, all medically verified bc she gets checkups on a regular basis, her heart has improved so much it is downgraded to mild with no surgery necessary. The docs are still scratching their heads. Two years ago she found a naturopath that she credits with helping with her heart issue even more although at the time of finding the naturopath her heart status had already been downgraded. She has also, again medically verified, fixed a foot she broke twice (several years apart) within a matter of days. She has become very skilled at mind over matter. This is not via Abe teachings. She is just one of the personal friends I have that share the same stories. It can and does work for some.
ReplyDeleteWe have the ability to think for ourselves. If we surrender that thinking process over to someone else for whatever reason it’s a crap shoot. There is a saying in the holistic community about listening to your own body wisdom. We actually do have the ability to listen to our body wisdom and take action in alignment with that wisdom. We actually do have the ability to tap into our own knowing and take action in alignment with that knowing. For some the knowing will be conventional medicine for others alternative protocols. It is an individual thing Kyra.
People complain about ‘cheap China shit’ but if the market was not there we would not see it on the shelves. Markets are fueled by demand. It is the same with New Wage scams…no market, no scams. You can't sell something if no one is buying. I really do believe with my whole being that the bigger picture in all of this is a wakeup call for ppl to get in touch with their own knowing.
~
In submitting a "screaming" post, I was naive (bec I virtually never post) in not realizing that expressing in such an extreme way would cause me to be considered extreme in my reliance and submission to Abe.
ReplyDeleteLike Clarity mentioned, I only took the core essence of Abe that adeuqately matched quantum physics and a kind of scientific logic that appealed to me. I didn't mean to imply I was programmed -by- Abraham, but that *I* created my own program in my mind from their teachings I felt were valid.
Like others have said, although I only spoke of our lives deteriorating, the overall quality
of looking for "positive aspects" did improve our daily living.
Parts, such as mind your own business and serve yourself first were impossible for me to incorporate.
I could write volumes of examples where I did NOT depend on Abe to do my thinking or overrule my own power of self-reliance in any way.
My screaming post came from a very unique situation where J&E *inserted* themselves and Abe(although they say there's no "Law of Assertion) personally into my life (without my asking) and in that experience Abe directly told me all was well with me *when it was not*. That's all I should say here.
**Were it not for that!** my post would not have been made. I easily allow that each person is responsible for making their own decisions about following Abe's or any other teachings and to what degree! We all have freewill. It was the bizarre and unexpected (and admittedly impressive) personal encounter and its fabricated assessment of assuring me all was well with me that ratched up to a whole other level of this follwer's experience of Abraham.
I have NEVER bought any teaching as the only "Truth." Hearing years ago that the earth may be a speck of dirt under a giant's fingernail let me realize that the *actual* Truth may surprise us all.
As so many do--one has to choose what rings most true to heart and mind and many times that involves taking pieces and parts from several or many different sources.
>> It was the unrequested, personal assurance that so impressed me and caused me (relative to the body condition) to lock-in to working for maintaining my steady "alignment" rather than blending in more of my own common sense. <That, I take responsibility for too! I don't nor have never blamed any one for my own experience--although it appeared that was what I was doing.
That said, Kyra, I do appreciate your EXCELLENT response in emphasizing Abraham's ongoing assurance that vibrational alignment w/well-being is ALL that is ever needed vs the medical community never offering the same. Abe: "You can be diagnosed w/17 deadly diseases and a tag already tied to your toe, and if you can bring yourself in alignment with well-being in 24 hours you can be in full well-being." (<I put " " bec this is what they've said dozens and dozens of times--but I am not quoting from a particular recording word-for-word.)
I had to offer a bit more. Couldn't bear to appear I felt I was a victim cult-programmed by a guru. Again, it was the unique circumstance that caused my own individual experience w/the Abrascam and my extreme response.
fyi~an outgrowth of the Ray situation.
ReplyDeletehttp://seeksafely.org/Empowerment_Guide.html
Empowerment Guide
Defining the Self-Help Industry:
A movement led by self-proclaimed practitioners aimed to help individuals improve their lives on the basis of emotional, mental, and intellectual development, and sometimes financial and relational development - often with a psychological basis.
Seek Empowerment Guide
A list of questions to ask yourself, and your leader, when you are searching for self- improvement options.
Be informed and knowledgeable in your search, not vulnerable and unaware.
What are the leader’s credentials? Does he/she have a college education/graduate degree/doctorate? What is the leader’s proven experience?
Is the leader forthcoming and transparent with his/her experiences and credentials? Does he/she welcome and encourage these types of questions?
Are events and other offerings clearly defined? Be wary of ‘surprises.’
How much does the event cost? Are there any ‘hidden’ costs?
Are there reviews and sources of research on this program/leader from the outside?
Does the leader preach ‘Universal Truths?’
Does the leader constantly preach how ‘EASY’ his/her program will help lead to improvement?
Does the event have physical challenges? If so, are there qualified and adequate emergency and health services in place?
If there are physical activities, does the leader ask you to disregard or not pay attention to your body’s physical signs?
Is the program/leader open and transparent, or are there many mysterious qualities?
What is the refund policy?
How aggressively is the leader ‘upselling’ more items/programs?
Challenge your leader with these questions. Not only will it help them become more accountable, it will also help you learn more.
Clarity,
ReplyDeleteI see what you're saying. Yes, the medical profession certainly is not without fault, and I wouldn't argue that it isn't controlled by the market.
And there are a lot of stories about people's healings via alternative methods. Personally, I need to see documentation on situations like this. There are just so many things that have to be considered. For instance, someone could test positive for HIV and then use mental healing methods and later test negative. But that doesn't mean they ever had HIV to begin with. Statistically, there are a lot of people who will be misdiagnosed. That's why a person would need to be tested more than once for that in the beginning. I'm just saying, there are a lot of things that can account for these things, which is why I am so strict about documentation (not just for mental forms of healing, but any form). But I certainly do believe in a mind/body connection.
Hey Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clarity.
@ Anon~
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for the clarification. I would have to say under the same circumstances I would probably have done the same thing.
I'm glad stories like this are surfacing.
I'm very happy you are okay now (truly).
ps...I had to laugh on the 'minding your own business' comment. I resemble that remark *wink*.
Kyra said~
ReplyDeleteI'm just saying, there are a lot of things that can account for these things, which is why I am so strict about documentation
~
And how come I'm not the least bit surprised *wink*. However asking my friends to fax medical records is just not going to happen and I know you don't expect such (or do you lol). Let's just say that these are ppl I know personally, in the flesh, have known for years so unless they all have a grand conspiracy (anything is possible) or all their doctors misdiagnosed (a is p) I'm inclined to go with their stories. It's the reason when 'Abe' spoke of such it didn't seem strange. However the way Abe says to do it is woefully incomplete bc working with the mind/body connection is more than a happy sticker imho.
Hey Clarity,
ReplyDeleteI certainly don't expect you to ask them to fax you their medical records ; ) My only point is, I've actually known a lot of healers and people who have had "healings." These are friends (or people I considered my friends). My problem is that all the times they've been confronted for proof--which some have even claimed they have readily available for anyone interested--suddenly it is mysteriously unavailable. I don't think they have any grand conspiracy, though I do think that some people are telling some big fish stories and some are genuinely not understanding what really happened (like I was expressing with the HIV situation). For instance, when researchers follow up on faith healing stories, they are looking into some miraculous claims. These people say they can prove these things, and then researchers discover that these people have lied, or don't realize that they actually still have the illness, or are even doa. This is why I must require that I make my decisions based on things that people can prove. After all, there are some very sincere people who believe they've been abducted by aliens and impregnated with alien babies. For all I know, they may even claim to have documentation to this effect. But I'm not going to just assume that their hypothesis about earth being a breeding ground for Martians is actually true--unless they show me something that proves to me otherwise.
Kyra said~
ReplyDeleteearth being a breeding ground for Martians is actually true--unless they show me something that proves to me otherwise.
~Harrumph, shows what you know. It's not the Martians.
"The Essassani maintain that they exist on a different frequency of reality which is coincident with a parallel reality 700 years in the future, and that they are physiologically a hybrid race which is a genetic combination of the human and the Orion Grays, otherwise called the Dow.
Through a generational cross-breeding program, which must have been somewhat successful because the Essassani exist, a new sub-species was born. Because of this, the Essassani have a vested interest in how the planetary population perceive them. As of 1996, the hybrid program is a done deal relative to the creation of the Essassani, as far as we can determine."
You need to bone up on Bashar Kyra, you're ignorance is showing *wink*.
You know me...score one for clarity ~ roflmao
Clarity, thanks for your kind words and chuckle.
ReplyDeleteThis seems to contribute to your and Kyra's last few exchanges so I'll offer it.
Even though I screamed against Abraham, after surgery my 2 hospitalizations due to complications and the lengths of stay were due to mishandling and mismanagement by the medical profession--at every turn. From the physicians' initial evaluations to the ER doc, to the specialists--even to the nurses. My husband being a surgeon says there was malpractic by all. We neither one had been patients since I gave birth 30 years ago, so we were both stunned things had declined so dramatically over time. (He's cut back to ofc surgery only for 10 years.)
However, to reluctantly use an Abe term--I don't want to "beat the drum" of bad-mouthing the medical profession either! And an Aber would immed'ly say--what else would you expect when you were fearing such an experience so strongly?
So what's my point? I'm not sure! In fact, the only thing I am sure of along with most who are thinking and aware is that there's not one philosphy/teaching/religion/etc that is consistent, predictable or provable in "results."
I'm sure you're all aware of the potential of our subconsious/unconscious beliefs to run much of our experience--including driving self-sabotage. Big-name research says 99% of our experience is determined by these beliefs formed about the world in our first 7 years--when our emotionally body locked in the only strategies it could to protect us from what we determined was not wanted, scary, etc. This is coming now from the major universities, etc. Although Seth told us this in 1968. (If there really was a Seth.)
This "fact" is coming more and more to the forefront in every discipline and leading the "mindfulness" movement from traditionally taught meditation to now gaining ground from psychology to medicine to corporate meetings.
I, myself, do see our deep-seated (unfortunately many times below our awareness) beliefs as an explanation for the inconsistencies in every belief system. And why our individual experiences can be so very different than what we expect and/or when we seem to be doing exactly what someone else is doing that's working beautifully for them and not for us.
I really don't intend to start any comments about this. The thought makes me sleepy... I'm just throwing it in the mix, since we'll just never know exactly what's running the show while we're here.
I guess I offer it as a reason I suffered both at the hands of Abe *and* the medical profession. (It also supports not feeling a victim of something outside yourself.)
That said, I will not hesitate to continue with the docs, but with my eyes open.
Clarity,
ReplyDeleteThank God you're here to expose my ignorance to the world. Of course it wouldn't be Martians! That would be ridiculous. I need to think before I write comments full of my uninformed gibberish.
PS: That score has to be worth at least 2 points ; )
Anon said~
ReplyDeleteThat said, I will not hesitate to continue with the docs, but with my eyes open.
~
I have friends in the medical field that tell me horror stories of just how much botching goes on in the name of cost effective measures. When I required outpatient surgery many years ago I covered all my bases. My surgeon was excellent and I adored him. I paid everyone up front cash. My surgeon was the only one who did not try and come back with 'extra' and for the others I had everything in writing so tough luck to them. I made sure a friend was with me at all times except in the operating room. I even had legal papers drawn that if an oppsy occurred I was to be taken home for hospice. I was determined not to 'go' in a hospital.
Paranoid or prudent...you be the judge *wink*.
@ Anon~
ReplyDeleteI'd love to discuss more offline if you are so inclined. If not I've taken my meds so I'm not suicidal *smile*. We've asked many of the same questions, ie Seth, but this is a blog about Abeway and Martians so not really the time or place *smile*.
If so just drop Kyra a line and she'll connect us. She'll vouch for my character or lack there of :)
Hello everyone, I came upon this thread when I was looking for more info about what was going on with Jerry. I have studied and taught the Law of Attraction for many years and have no grief with J&E. They are offering their world view, and as Clarity pointed out, no one is chained to the chair in the James Ray seminars, and this applies even more so to J&E, in my view. I went to a James Ray intro, and he was much more pushy.
ReplyDeleteRegarding health, I have always heard Abraham-Hicks encourage people to take advantage of modern science and technology. If I have a headache, I try to get back into alignment. If that doesn’t work, I take an analgesic. I don’t see any conflict there between the Abraham-Hicks message and that decision.
It made perfect sense to me that Jerry would both talk to Abraham-Hicks and go to the hospital. I believe we have the (latent) ability to heal anything, and to be and do and have anything. I also recognize my skill level at “mind over matter.” Sometimes it’s easier to take a pill. I also don’t jump off buildings to see if I can fly.
Anonymous, you seem to get it that you made your own choices. Thank you for sharing more of your story than just the rant against J&E. Since I look at things in terms of the Law of Attraction, Esther/Abraham giving you a personal false dx and everyone else doing the same, indicates that no one can trump your vibration, not even Abraham.
Abraham-Hicks has always encouraged me to look to my own guidance. I have never heard them instruct anyone to do anything (unlike James Ray) -- except to go ahead with a decision that felt right to them. I remember being shocked when a woman talked about having her breasts removed. I thought they would tell her to try other approaches first. They flatly said, you’re aligned with that, go ahead.
Anonymous, I really liked your comment about how beliefs that we accepted as children, which are often out of our awareness (the beliefs just seem like reality), can bite us. I think this happened to you and to Jerry. I’ve studied conscious reality creation for over 30 years and am still coming to terms with my beliefs. However, everything I’ve gotten from Seth-Roberts and Abraham-Hicks has felt positive to me.
I realize my views are different from most people here, but you are thoughtful, knowledgeable and courteous. Whenever I find such people talking about a topic that interests me, I’m delighted.
Best wishes to you.
Hey John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you stopping by to comment. It's nice to have people offering a new perspective to the discussion.
If someone says they have a cure for cancer, and it's actually arsenic poisoning, and someone takes it and and dies, the person who claimed it was a cancer-cure would be held legally responsible for the person's death (even if they never discouraged the patient from receiving a conventional treatment). This is what the Abraham teachings are doing. They claim their ideas can help people prevent and release illness. Again, it doesn't matter if they are "cool" with medicine if they are making these sorts of dangerous, unproven claims. No one is forcing anyone to take the cancer-cure or to listen to Abraham, but I don't think that the liars and charlatans of this world are unaccountable regardless of the involvement of those who listen to them or choose to use their snake oil.
The fact is, Jerry Hicks has been promoting these materials, which claim to be able to effectively help people prevent and cure any illness (without needing medical intervention). As someone who has been using these teachings since their beginning, it is not unreasonable to hold him up as an example of their effectiveness (or there lack of), considering the Hickses have always used their own lives as examples of the effectiveness of the teachings (citing their wealth, happiness, etc).
While I certainly appreciate your accepting attitude of conventional medicine, the fact is, people come to these teachings believing that they can create perfect health for themselves with the processes offered (without a need for medical intervention). It should make people pause when they see that the primary advocates of these teachings are not able to achieve the things that these teachings claim to be able to help people achieve. There really is no difference between James Arthur Ray "attracting" the death lodge situation, and Jerry Hicks "attracting" leukemia. In both cases, they aren't living what they are preaching, and they should be mocked and ridiculed accordingly.
Hi John,
ReplyDeleteWhat is troubling to many of us are the lies. Course I broke my own rule there which is when someone starts telling me how honest they are I start locking the doors *grin*. There is no way in hell I think any of this revolved around a spider bite. Jerry was actually showing signs of chemo in his last two public appearances. I absolutely do not believe there was ever a spider involved.
My rule of thumb is when I discover someone is lying then it throws everything else into suspect. The Hicks have a devoted following and have lied to that following about what is going on. More stories are surfacing as to the deceit at ‘home court’.
What I stumbled onto yesterday at the Abe Forum gives me even greater pause. No I have not viewed the event yet, but I will. This is a quote I take from the Abe Forum from ‘notes’ a member made from the Stamford workshop 5-28~
It was so interesting how Abraham addressed Jerry’s situation at the end of the last segment, probably because it was on so many people’s mind in the room and in the cyber audience.
Abraham explained how Jerry & Esther stood not in a position of fearing illness, but determined never to have it.
As Willow mentioned earlier in a previous post, Abraham talked about how Jerry & Esther were so quick at clicking the mute button while watching TV programs if something that was not pleasing to them came up, that it was like they were saying “not in my world, not in my world, not in my world” and that there was a tension in that.
And that holding yourself against what you do not want is not the Vortex work that they are talking about.
The Vortex work is being in a place where you can see a commercial and you can say to yourself maybe I don’t choose that but there may be people who are in a place where it’s the best that they can do right now, everybody is out there trying to make a living… or I don’t have to make an issue about that… and then go general…
They also said: Jerry was standing in a place of wanting to protect the world from itself in many ways, he said for years that when you push against something you put an equal amount of pressure on yourself.
~
It is the last sentence that really raises red flags imho…Jerry wanting to protect the world.
This is the same Abe forum that two weeks ago had a long thread on Abe is Jesus. Not ‘like’ Jesus, but Jesus.
David Gordon runs the Abe forum and by his own admission is employed by the Hicks. So we have a forum being run by an employee of the Hicks who permits a thread on Abe is Jesus but deletes a thread on ‘Does Jerry have cancer?' (two days ago).
So it seems to me like the Hicks are doing just a bit more than 'offering their world view’ unless of course their ‘world view’ is the second coming has arrived and is coming through Ester via Abe.
Toss in Jerry wanting to protect the world…well, you get the picture.
Thanks for coming though…like Kyra said it's always nice to get another perspective.
ps...It is the last sentence that really raises red flags imho…Jerry wanting to protect the world.
ReplyDeletebc according to Abe there is nothing to protect. So which is it? Like Jerry has been listening to Abe for 25 years and still doesn't believe them or what?
If Jerry doesn't believe them then why should I?
Clarity,
ReplyDeleteI second your comment about the lies. I find it hard to believe that the Hickses would have thought it was just "involving a spider bite" on May 5th--two days before Jerry started his 28-day chemo treatment. Even more misleading was when, after the Hickses had already revealed that Jerry was undergoing heavy chemo, they reposted the "spider bite" note as their reason for more workshop cancellations. Very shady.
re spider~I think mojo said it best on Cosmic Connie's blog...
ReplyDeleteSpiders are just another one of God(dess)'s special creatures put on this earth for our enjoyment and bliss-following. It's not *their* fault they got attracted into this situation by the awesome powers of the LOA. Even the dreaded Hairy Jumping Yacht Spiders (arachnea cruisesquealia) serve a valuable role in our luxury-class boating ecosystem, ensuring that only the strongest, most positive-minded mariners sail the seven seas.
As Monty Python used to sing,
All things dull and ugly, All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty, The Lord God made the lot....
Hi Kyra and Clarity,
ReplyDeleteNeither of you seem like callous people. Both of you have focused on the spider bite and J&E not being fully forthcoming. I think in most instances, if you found out that someone was diagnosed with leukemia, your sense of compassion would trump your criticism of whom they told and how they told it. However, Jerry is not a usual instance, and I think your anger at J&E is coloring your responses.
If I put myself in Jerry’s shoes, I would want to tell people as little as possible until I regained my own balance. I would not want a bunch of caring, sad-faced people amplifying my fears. I think the spider bite leading Jerry to go to the hospital was what occurred. However, the diagnosis was clearly omitted from their communication. In most cases, if someone were dealing with leukemia and they didn’t update their website in a timely, more revealing fashion, most people would understand.
But I don’t believe these “lies” are what are really troubling you: it is the strong message that our illnesses are the results of our thinking and can be—must be—cured by our thinking.
If one believes in the existence of the Law of Attraction, then something as intimate as our bodies would have to be affected by our thoughts. Even science, which has a history of ignoring thoughts—they are terribly difficult to measure—acknowledges the mind-body connection.
However, while Abraham-Hicks has strongly endorsed looking at your thoughts and actively changing them, I have never gotten the message that one should do this in lieu of taking advantage of medical technology. They have pointed out that a healer who gives the message that there is no hope can do more harm than good, and when one receives a diagnosis, symptoms will likely amplify—all consistent with our thoughts affecting our biology.
Kyra, I think you summed up your position well with this quote:
“If you have cancer, and I mix a concoction and call it a cancer cure (despite it having no curative substance), that is deception. Even if I condone going to the doctor, the reality is that I have deceived you into thinking that this mixture will heal you (when I know perfectly well that's not the case).”
Where I think we differ, is that I have never seen any evidence that J&E “know perfectly well that’s not the case.” From my perspective, they fully believe what they teach, and they have tried to live the teachings to the best of their ability.
Clarity: “according to Abe there is nothing to protect. So which is it? Like Jerry has been listening to Abe for 25 years and still doesn't believe them or what? If Jerry doesn't believe them then why should I?”
The fact that they haven’t always perfectly lived the teachings speaks more in my mind to their wrestling with the many false beliefs inculcated in all of us than their lack of belief in the teachings. I have been studying the Law of Attraction for more than 30 years and still get tripped up.
The medical establishment, in their search for a cancer cure has often prescribed concoctions that turned out to have “no curative substance,” but I don’t see this as deception.
Kyra: “They claim their ideas can help people prevent and release illness. Again, it doesn't matter if they are "cool" with medicine if they are making these sorts of dangerous, unproven claims.”
There have been studies done on positive outlook affecting recovery, so there is some scientific support for the beneficial effects of feeling good. I also don’t see how encouraging people to look for the best in a situation is “dangerous,” unless, as in the case with Anonymous, one decides not to get a medical opinion. As both Clarity and Anonymous have pointed out, blindly trusting in any external authority, medical or otherwise, can get you into a lot of trouble.
If your message is not to blindly trust the teachings of Abraham, but instead to listen to your own feelings and do your own due diligence, then I completely agree with you, and I think so would J&E.
Hey again John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your response. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this subject so openly.
It is not just this recent development that colors my anger towards the Hickses. The Hickses have shown that they are not trustworthy. Jerry was a fan of authors who wrote specifically, in term and meaning, on the Law of Attraction, yet he and Esther claim they had never heard of the Law of Attraction before Abraham. This is no different than Janet Dailey being “inspired” to a book that Nora Roberts wrote. In not crediting a source of this information other than their own “inspiration,” Esther and Jerry Hicks are plagiarizing, particularly considering that they attempted to trademark the phrase (show some sort of proprietorship over it). This is absolutely unacceptable, and plagiarism is fraud. There is just no way around that.
The danger of the philosophy is that it is a delusion about the nature of the body. It claims that this metaphysical Law of Attraction can affect the body—and even cure it of any ailment. The Law of Attraction encourages people who are ill to believe—erroneously—that they "created" or "attracted" their illnesses (all illnesses). That is unfounded and absurd, and there is no proof to show this is the case. I can’t even imagine how awful it must be for someone to believe that they are the reason that they “attracted” Parkinson’s, HIV, or cancer. To extend this beyond disease, it is equally detrimental for a person to believe that they attracted things like rape and the deaths of their loved ones.
As for medical treatments that were proven not to be curative, there can be quackery without fraud. Scientists must continually test and analyze to figure out whether a particular approach works. If it’s discovered it is faulty, then it is left behind. Even some healers have been quacks and not frauds. They believed in what they taught, but it wasn’t true. Because of the nature of various deceptions behind the Abraham Hicks materials (citing the plagiarism as one example), I am less inclined to believe that this is quackery.
As for the studies done on the effectiveness of positive thinking on recovery, there has been better research conducted that shows that recovery is not improved by "positive thinking." See James Coyne's large-scale study on this subject: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858800/
And the studies before it that pioneered research suggesting a link between positive thinking and recovery have been viewed as faulty. Even the main pioneering researcher who created them was not able to duplicate his results.
This all said, I definitely agree with you, that it’s good not to blindly trust external sources. However, I cannot agree that feelings are a good way of assessing the validity of something. Plenty of charlatans, like the Hickses, play on people’s emotions and hopes as a way of gaining their trust. It’s easy to tell people pretty lies that make them feel good, but it doesn’t mean there is any validity to them…no matter how amazing they make a person feel.
I think it is detrimental and depressimg (and makes you feel pretty bad) if you believe that you only have to "change your thoughts" and all your ailments and mishaps of life will be resolved. Personally, I have felt like a failure lately because I am not fully able to "create health & wealth" in the way I wished. I have neither been able to manifest money in my bank accout, nor my bad hip to become well again.
ReplyDeleteI find myself in the situation now that I must realise that I cannot just create reality. The quantum physics theory of the Bleep film (the observer effect) ... I have talked to a person who knows something about quantum physics and they told me it simply does not work that way.
I do believe in a body-mind connection, and I believe in the beneficial effect of your own attitude, on your actions and the things you achieve in life. If I walk around being pessimistic, I will probably not be able to do much to change my life for the better - simply because I won't try to change it.
I can achieve better results if I believe in my own abilities and my own capability. If I accept myself more and stop beating myself up for being "not perfect".
But I have totally stopped to believe that I can "create reality" by just dreaming.
I wish I could still believe in a loving Universe or a loving Source. That part felt really good. :-(
Morning John,
ReplyDeleteTo clarify my position, I do believe in LOA and I do believe in a positive attitude being able to influence the body. That being said I do believe that beliefs influence the reality we perceive. So that I do believe in a positive attitude then that is what I would perceive. One of the most interesting bits of information I have run across is that the beliefs of the researcher influence the results of the research in all areas not just medical. Since it’s all a bunch of beliefs colliding who’s to say which belief trumps. Bill Hicks sums up best my ‘world view’~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q95kX_EP2Nk
When the spider bite ruse came up I had to start looking more closely at the whole Abe thing. I never for a moment thought the spider bite story was ‘real’ and this was before I started reading, connecting dots on is this real or Memorex. I had found inconsistencies in the transmissions early on. I let it slide bc the core of the teachings were affecting my life in positive ways. Why did Abe say in the 80’s to get goggles to see bc of volcanic ash that would cover the world, store 2 years of rice and beans (and remember not to share). Why did Abe say all crop circles were manmade without exception? Most recently how is it Abe did not know what the string theory is? Are we asking these questions of Ester or infinite intelligence? If we are asking Ester then why not say Ester with her world view speaking instead of this is Abraham the voice of infinite intelligence?
Why did I have such a strong reaction when I first heard Abe switch from vibrational escrow to vortex? My reaction was so strong I had to turn it off. It took me a few to accept the vortex spiel. Confused me bc I love vortex and have played with them for years. So when I went looking for answers dots connected. The concept of the vortex was a direct result of the patent office refusing (twice) to let the Hicks trademark the term Law of Attraction. If you have indeed been working with LOA for 30 years you would know the absurdity of anyone trying to trademark the term. Following the rejection of the patent office Vortex of Attraction was applied for and approved. The vortex is simply a marketing maneuver plain and simple. Since the vortex is central to everything ‘Abe’ preaches currently…and I mean everything, the natural conclusion is what Abe is preaching now is a result of marketing plain and simple. Or is it that infinite intelligence has gone into a co partnership with the Hicks on the marketing strategy?
That lead to more digging, more revelations, more inconsistencies in what the Hicks preach and how they live. I simply cannot brush off with a simple the Hicks try to live up to the teachings but miss the mark. It’s been about marketing all along. The earlier workshops went into more depth in the q and a segments. Now it’s just get in the vortex. Ppl are confused bc even doing it just like Abe says things are not working out like they had envisioned. If you listen to Abe now ‘they’ say listen to the meditation cd’s and the vortex will suck you in…you don’t have to do anything. As a student then teacher of LOA you would know the fallacy of this statement. Fine tuning your vibration is more than hanging out and waiting to be sucked in.
cont~
My ‘belief’, and it is only a belief, is that when channeling was the buzz of the 80’s Jerry, who was top level Amway as a motivational speaker said hey hun, let’s give this a try. The early sessions were a knock off of Seth, Theo, sounded similar in voice with the hype of the day, world soon to be in chaos. As things started smoothing out, ppl saw the planet did not implode with the harmonic convergence etc, channeling took a new turn. Abe’s message shifted and this is where my ‘belief’ comes in, some form of non physical wisdom wiggled past Ester and surprised them both. Kyra will think I’m nuts for believing this but being two intelligent beings we agree to disagree having a great time bantering round our ideas du jour. So, with the possibility that something ‘beyond’ squeezed thru the door, repeating wisdoms that are not new but repetition seems to be important to break the self hypnosis we employ to have this ‘dream’ seem real…we find some things in the core of the teachings that resonate and resonate strongly. This non physical door squeezing running parallel to the marketing mindset of Jerry and who is surprised by that, marketing is his signature. Even though Abe has made many comments on copywrite being bs, trademarking being bs, abundance is controlled by vibration not circumstance and we are not here to control circumstance if you look at the trail J and E have blazed it has attempted to do all the things Abe has labeled bs. I’m not just talking about the patent office fiasco. The history is there for inquiring minds. Still you might say look at the message not the messenger. But, if the messenger is so caught up in marketing is it not possible that some ‘non physical’ would eventually ‘leave the building’? The today workshops are flat. I’m not the only one to see this and I’m not talking about Abe skeptics. I’ve been in discussion with other Abe friends who felt something off for awhile.
ReplyDeleteIf in the greater scheme of things one can see the perfection then getting a message out to such massive proportions would logically make sense to go via the route of Amway professionals. Jerry, Ester have played their parts to perfection. The next logical step would be to have the matrix crumble bc does it really make any logical sense if you do embrace the core teachings, that we come to take thought where it has not been before, that we don’t need Ester or any of this bc we have our own connection to source knowing, and then infinite intelligence says change of plans, we are going to stick around and spoon feed you everything you need to know to get everything you ever wanted (promo for the newest Vortex of Attraction dvd) and by the way, buy our meditation cd’s and hang out, the vortex will suck you in.
See John, in my world view the crumbling of the façade makes perfect sense. I ‘believe’ everything is happening in perfect timing. For ones that have taken the core teachings ‘to heart’ it’s now time to take the next logical step in expansion…that we have our own connection to source knowing and it’s time to make that connection. It has nothing to do with (for me) a lack of compassion for Jerry’s condition. If you do believe in LOA as you say you do then you would know that everything Jerry is experiencing (even a seeming lack of compassion) has to be what he has attracted period. Jerry is not a victim according to LOA and whatever he is going through is in response to a vibration he is offering. If it ‘looks like’ he is experiencing a lack of compassion what might that say about his relationships with people? The marketing of Abe has continued through all of this spider bite fiasco but the Hicks did have a choice in the matter. They could have been upfront with their following and transformed Jerry’s experience into tool for further expansion. Jerry who has said over and over he just wants to bring this message to the world missed a giant opportunity to do so. J and E tucked their tails while continuing to promote new sources of revenue, Abe Live. Ester taking off on a cruise (for the greater good?) while Jerry is home with leukemia is just very strange to me. When they first found out Jerry was seriously ill, and I think it was way before Florida, they could have put everything on hold and said let’s work on getting you back into alignment. Ester could have said I’m standing by your side till we sort this all out. Some workshops cancellations happened without any timely notification which resulted in some ppl who had flown from overseas not only being left high and dry and but incurring financial loss on several fronts. I have personal knowledge of the office staff being less than helpful or caring in these situations. While one can say well that is the office staff not J and E all J and E had to do was instruct the staff to compensate any who incurred financial loss for the short cancellations. They certainly have made enough money, like tons by their own admission, to offer this courtesy. In my world it would have been the decent and ethical thing to do. I do not think J and E have acted ethically or with decency.
ReplyDeleteExposing the ruse (to me) is simply the next logical step. Somewhere in all of this really amusing ride is (my belief) a greater knowing will transpire. Those hanging on to every word that spills from Ester’s mouth, waiting for the next installment of Abe wisdoms have missed the message of the core teachings. Doesn’t matter, the core message is historically missed by the majority and heard by the few. As Abe would say ‘there is never a crowd on the leading edge’.
Thanks for the lively exchange~
Anon said~
ReplyDeleteBut I have totally stopped to believe that I can "create reality" by just dreaming.
~
That was bc the modality via Abe, least ways the newer Abe, leaves out the part about deliberate focus of attention/intention. Moving into an alternate reality is not accomplished by just dreaming, feeling good and it sucks you in. Vibration alignment comes from first getting to the point of feeling vibration viscerally. Our thoughts are simply indicators of where we are at regarding vibration. Focused attention is a lifelong refinement.
~
I wish I could still believe in a loving Universe or a loving Source. That part felt really good. :-(
~
When I came to the juncture of seeing behind the Abe curtain I too had to ask myself these questions. This is where I either discounted all my experiences of such from the time of a toddler to today or held to what I know to be true regardless of anyone else’s opinions on how things work. I have a lifetime of experiences that give me the knowing of a loving Universe and Source. There have been times I have experienced pure magic, random times and my desire to take it from random to every day all day has been my quest way before Abe. I have made steady progress in this endeavor.
Anonymous said: "I have talked to a person who knows something about quantum physics and they told me it simply does not work that way."
ReplyDeleteYes. I went to a free James Ray seminar a few years before the deadly sweat lodge event, and he went on and on about how quantum physics proves what he's saying is true.
This approach is what gets people's trust, especially people like the Hicks. Not only do they have "Source Energy"'s authority to back them, they also have the authority of science.
In my experience this is what gets people's guard down in a way that they would NEVER let it down if someone were trying to sell them a product, or in any other social context.
They don't see the red flags even when they would be completely obvious in any other context because of that appeal to authority. They say they have the very laws of science AND God (i.e. The Universe, Source Energy) on their side.
That's why people who weren't 'chained to their chairs' didn't just get up and leave James Ray's sweat lodge event. They had trust in him as a spiritual leader, as someone who is on the same journey as them but has extra insight and authority on how to become a more spiritual person due to his expertise and authority, backed by science and the very source of the Universe no less.
Clarity said,
ReplyDelete<< I have a lifetime of experiences that give me the knowing of a loving Universe and Source. There have been times I have experienced pure magic, random times and my desire to take it from random to every day all day has been my quest way before Abe. I have made steady progress in this endeavor. >>
Thank You Clarity. It is very good to hear this.
First of all, thank you very much kyra.
ReplyDeleteWe just cant create reality, i tested it, i believed it during 5 years , but it didnt work, the are laws that we must obey like gravity or being mortal, it has never been a law that you get what you think about, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't no matter how hard you try or beliefs you have, it's sad but it's true.
Positive thinking is great, and it provides you happiness, still is hard to accept we can't change things we are humans and we are limited, you like it or not it's truth.
from wikipedia:
A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated and is held with very strong feelings or opinions and expressed forcefully.[1] In psychiatry, it is defined to be a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process) and is held despite evidence to the contrary.[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, stupidity, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.
Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders including schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.
@Anon~
ReplyDeleteIt’s not like I haven’t come to this 'what is real' juncture many times in my long life of explorations. One exploration ends and another begins. I review the previous explorations gleaning from them the ‘truths’ I found relevant to me. Just because a particular exploration completes in one way or another does not discount the experiences I’ve had which contributed to my expanded knowing. I would venture to say most of us came to Abe not looking for a loving source energy but bc we had experiences of such and hungered to know more.
Source energy, God/dess, Kahuna, Universe, whatever anyone wishes to call ‘it’ is a loving presence that guides me. This I know beyond all doubt. I do have a connection to my inner being, source self, soul self, again, terms irrelevant, that when I am able to ‘hear’ I have been guided in magical and/or practical ways to a better place. I’ve been pulled out of imminent serious danger in an instant many many times. I have had experiences of the reality around me shifting into something so beautiful, so out of this world that I stood in awe. I have seen things, heard things (too many to rationalize) that could only be a reflection of the magik that is real and I have friends who have had the same experiences.
Quantum mechanics as a field is in infancy and debates abound among the experts in the field on who is right. When you look at the very nature of the field being explored and our rudimentary tools for the exploration we are so at the beginning of this exploration we're like Neanderthals. I would hold more credence in the physicist that says I don’t know than one who says with great authority I know. Maybe the foot soldier explorers are ppl just like you and me.
Skeptics will say no source and I will say source. Doesn’t matter bc when we do go belly up if they are right I won’t know and if I’m right how cool eh?
We have (i think) 2 diff anon posters, one who was Abe for 8 years, one for 5. My post was addressed to anon 8 *smile*.
ReplyDeleteUnless 8 has become 5 or 5 has become 8, dunno.
As far as anon 5...in one sense it's all delusion. There is no one truth.
~
AH....Who cares Kyra? We don't know what Jerry has going on that would help create that...do we?
ReplyDeleteLet me tell you...I listened to your BS for a few weeks, and guess what happened? By paying attention to your lack of awareness...I brought to me more lack of awareness.
Thank you for teaching me a great lesson, INDEED!
P.S. I would LOVE to see ANYONE stand up in front of hundreds of people, and speak so clearly, intelligently and aware as Esther Hicks...it is JUST NOT HUMAN.
P.P.S. DON'T BELIEVE YOUR MIND...it will lead you astray EVERY time you listen...it does not have your enlightenment in mind...but, I don't think you do either. Figures...
Hey bb,
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by.
I find it interesting that you would ask “Who cares?” after stating that you "listened" to me for "a few" weeks. A few weeks seems like quite a bit of time for someone who doesn’t care. That aside, I do think a lot of people care that Jerry Hicks, who has been promoting these ideas for nearly 25 years, has been unable to use them to his benefit on a subject that these teachings claim to be able to help people with.
Other self-admitted fakes have been able to convince people that they are doing something that is “just not human” when they are really just duping people (see James Randi’s channeling creation: Carlos). It’s much easier than people think, so what Esther is doing is hardly impressive. I’m sure there were plenty who thought Jim Jones was inspired by something that was “just not human” too. That doesn’t mean it was true.
I certainly can agree that the mind can lead people astray and does not have my (or anyone’s) enlightenment in mind, but I’m not sure what that has to do with any of what I’m saying.
Thanks again for the comment, bb.
First Peter Pan and Harry Potter. Then implications of Santa Claus :(
ReplyDeleteNOW YOU'RE TELLING ME CARLOS??? But he was tested by a certified nurse...he stopped his pulse! That is NOT HUMAN!!!
sobbing hysterically~
James Randi Speaks: The Carlos Hoax
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hgP3ioAeA
Clarity,
ReplyDeleteWho will I swipe the rug out from underneath next? The Tooth Fairy? The Easter Bunny? You never know! ; )
Okay, I'm not stupid. It's ludicrous to think some damn bunny is going to go hopping around with chocolates no less being numero uno on the food chain and not get nabbed. Besides…a bunny having eggs is a dead giveaway.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I have proof of the tooth fairy bc she always took my tooth and left me money…SO THERE !!!
*victory dance*
Hi Kyra,
ReplyDelete“Jerry was a fan of authors who wrote specifically, in term and meaning, on the Law of Attraction, yet he and Esther claim they had never heard of the Law of Attraction before Abraham.”
The story of how Jerry brought home The Nature of Reality and Esther not wanting it anywhere near her, is one of the earliest references to prior works that inspired J&E. As you note, Jerry has often stated how appreciative he was of the authors that plowed this ground before them. I have never heard them state, or even imply, that they had never heard of the Law of Attraction. Jerry said one of the most profound sentences in NPR was, You create your own reality. Maybe they had not heard that specific term, but they would know that it goes back thousands of years. If you have a reference for your statement, I would appreciate it.
“The danger of the philosophy is that it is a delusion about the nature of the body. It claims that this metaphysical Law of Attraction can affect the body—and even cure it of any ailment. The Law of Attraction encourages people who are ill to believe—erroneously—that they "created" or "attracted" their illnesses (all illnesses). That is unfounded and absurd, and there is no proof to show this is the case. I can’t even imagine how awful it must be for someone to believe that they are the reason that they “attracted” Parkinson’s, HIV, or cancer. To extend this beyond disease, it is equally detrimental for a person to believe that they attracted things like rape and the deaths of their loved ones.”
To be accurate, there is no claim that the Law of Attraction can affect the body. The claim is that our thoughts, and more specifically, our vibration, draws all experience to us. Knowing this can create a sense of blame or a sense of empowerment. I had a client who was raped. After some exploration she saw clearly how this was a perfect response to how she had been feeling (and thinking) about herself. When she was finished with her examination of the event, she had no regrets, no anger, and no fear of being raped again. This was many years ago, and I still keep in touch with her. She has never even been threatened by a man again.
There are many women who have the comfort of concluding they were a victim, who continue to be afraid of a recurrence for years. This is also true of course for most women who have breast cancer.
“As for the studies done on the effectiveness of positive thinking on recovery, there has been better research conducted that shows that recovery is not improved by "positive thinking." See James Coyne's large-scale study on this subject: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858800/
Thank you for this reference. I appreciate it whenever you can provide source evidence to back up your statements (especially when you are accusing someone of wrongdoing).
Coyne and Tennen review four claims, find that they do not fit with available evidence, and conclude that the claims have not been scientifically proven.
1) The role of positive factors, such as a “fighting spirit” in extending the life of persons with cancer. “Fighting spirit is characterized by patients optimistically viewing cancer as a challenge and having a determination to fight the cancer and not to allow it to disrupt their lives.”
A “fighting spirit” is not really consistent with using the Law of Attraction in a constructive way. When one fights something, that thing is held strongly in one’s vibration.
2) “On an a priori basis, one might assume that it should be easy to demonstrate that positive psychological characteristics predict subsequent physical health, but upon reflection, it is also clear that it might be difficult to establish a causal connection.”
They go on to point out that a variety of variables could impact such connections. I agree.
Cont.
ReplyDelete3) “People living with a variety of illnesses, injuries, and losses have reported to positive psychology investigators that despite their plight, they have discovered benefits in their situation…. After decades of study, we still do not know what benefit finding is, nor do we understand the circumstances in which finding benefits has positive adaptational value.
4) Post-traumatic growth [is] the notion that an individual can experience improved relationships, increased inner strength, and deepening spirituality from having undergone a traumatic or life-threatening experience. … Although research participants readily complete measures of PTG, an examination of scale items raises serious concerns as to whether people can accurately portray the growth they claim to have experienced.
This is one of the problems of doing research on anything related to how (if) one’s thoughts create one’s reality. Science is a superb tool for evaluating objective material reality. However, people are notoriously unreliable observers of their inner experience, and science has no tools of sufficient precision (yet) to observe peoples thoughts and feelings on an ongoing basis. (The movie industry may be coming to the rescue: http://bit.ly/mjRJjd)
I made the statement that, “There have been studies done on positive outlook affecting recovery, so there is some scientific support for the beneficial effects of feeling good.” While studies have been done and there has been some scientific support, I accept the conclusions of Coyne and Tennen. Until I’m able to offer some more compelling scientific evidence, I accept your comment regarding these unproven (by science) claims.
Anonymous: “I think it is detrimental and depressing (and makes you feel pretty bad) if you believe that you only have to "change your thoughts" and all your ailments and mishaps of life will be resolved. Personally, I have felt like a failure lately because I am not fully able to "create health & wealth" in the way I wished.”
ReplyDeleteAnon, we all have days when we want to go out and play, and it’s raining, and it seems like it’s never going to end. Then we distract ourselves, and before we know it, the sun is out. You know what you want now more than ever. You’ll get your emotional legs back and be off and running.
Clarity: Thanks for the Bill Hicks video. I partially like his philosophy. He says people who speak his truth get shot, then he gets shot at the end. Now he’s dead. (LoA?)
“The concept of the vortex was a direct result of the patent office refusing (twice) to let the Hicks trademark the term Law of Attraction.”
If you have any more specific information about this, I would appreciate it.
“The today workshops are flat. I’m not the only one to see this and I’m not talking about Abe skeptics. I’ve been in discussion with other Abe friends who felt something off for awhile.”
I don’t find this at all. The people I talk with are very excited about the new material coming through. A thoughtful person noted, “The beliefs of the researcher influence the results of the research.”
“For ones that have taken the core teachings ‘to heart’ it’s now time to take the next logical step in expansion…that we have our own connection to source knowing and it’s time to make that connection.”
I agree.
“James Randi Speaks: The Carlos Hoax”
Thanks for that. He’s great. His major logical stumbling block, from my perspective, is that he always concludes, If it can be done by magic, it was done by magic. “The beliefs of the researcher influence the results of the research.”
If anyone's not familiar with Derren Brown, I highly recommend his special The Messiah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ02I6QyagM
ReplyDeleteHe goes across the United States and convinces people he is channeling the dead, psychic, an alien abductee and a Christian who can convert people just by touching them. Watching him it's so painfully obvious what people like Esther Hicks are doing.
BB, what Esther does is not that impressive, perhaps you need to get out more.
Derren says about this experiment: "I'm not interested in attacking anyone's beliefs. But I think as intelligent human beings we should be prepared to question our beliefs and the people who encourage us to make life decisions based on the information they give us."
Oh wow...got a lot of comments all at once. Give me a little time to address them all.
ReplyDeleteHey John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteJerry and Esther have both said that they had never heard words “Law of Attraction” pre-Abraham. Esther said it in Part III of her interview with Oprah. Jerry said it in the 1989 recordings with Abraham, and it can be found on pg 133 of the book The Law of Attraction. The authors that I was discussing that Jerry would have been exposed to the Law of Attraction through were Charles Fillmore, Ernest Holmes, and Napoleon Hill. Jerry credits Filmore and Holmes as his mentoring influences in A New Beginning I (page 107). Both authors discuss Law of Attraction, by name, as Abraham does. Napoleon Hill (who we know was a major influence on Jerry) even discusses LOA, by name, in The Law of Success. The Hickses say that Abraham inspired them to it (not that they heard it from these authors). This is why it is plagiarism--because they have only credited their own "inspiration" as being the source of the information. That's why I compare it to Janet Dailey being "inspired" to a Nora Roberts book.
(continued...)
(continued...)
ReplyDelete"To be accurate, there is no claim that the Law of Attraction can affect the body."
I would submit to you that the claim comes from Abraham when they say that you can use your knowledge of LOA to bring your body into perfect health. I understand what you are saying, and agree, but this was what I meant, and I think it is accurate to say.
"Knowing this can create a sense of blame or a sense of empowerment."
The blame is the part I am bothered by.
"I had a client who was raped. After some exploration she saw clearly how this was a perfect response to how she had been feeling (and thinking) about herself. When she was finished with her examination of the event, she had no regrets, no anger, and no fear of being raped again. This was many years ago, and I still keep in touch with her. She has never even been threatened by a man again."
I would like to say two things here. First, people have similarly used God, even a wrathful one, to ease pain in situations like this. I'm sure there are a lot of stories you could tell someone to make them feel better, but it doesn't make them true. Second, the fact that she has never been threatened by a man again does not necessarily have anything to do with her understanding of Law of Attraction. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have been raped who have not had re-occurrences who have been without LOA or any superstition--just as their are people who do understand LOA and still end up with life-threatening illnesses.
You can share some nice stories about how someone felt empowered by it, but regardless of what you told someone to make them feel better, the reality is that this ideology is encouraging people to take responsibility for things like cancer, rape, loss, etc. Not only is that unjustifiable, but it is encouraging people to believe that all harm that comes to them is their own doing. If you cannot understand the damage that this can inflict on a person, believing when they are sick and getting sicker, that it is their own doing (no matter how many Books of Positive Aspects they do to get better), then I don't have much more to say on this. And what would you do if you told that woman about LOA and then she did get raped again, even after doing all sorts of "vibrational" work? Can you not see how she might feel more blame in that situation?
(continued...)
ReplyDelete"...This is one of the problems of doing research on anything related to how (if) one’s thoughts create one’s reality. Science is a superb tool for evaluating objective material reality. However, people are notoriously unreliable observers of their inner experience, and science has no tools of sufficient precision (yet) to observe peoples thoughts and feelings on an ongoing basis."
In response to your discussion about Coyne and Tennen's research, I agree that the research is problematic in this field (and that it has not been done geared specifically towards LOA), which is why I don't think people should make claims about the scientific truth of this until they can sufficiently prove it. As of now, it has not been proven. As you even point out, "people are notoriously unreliable observers of their inner experience" and I would like to add that they are just as unreliable at observing their external experience. So even if science doesn't have the tools, people on their own have even less reliable tools. History has shown us how incredibly unreliable testimonies and anecdotes are. That's why authoritative voices professing some great understanding of the universe don't count as proof of anything.
In regards to Clarity's comment on their trademark claim of "Law of Attraction," I have written some on it here: Trademarking the Law of Attraction (this page includes a link to the actual documents from the trademark/patent office) and here, Abraham Hicks Give Law of Attraction a Makeover
PS: I appreciate the article on Neurocinam. Fascinating stuff.
theoreticalgrrrl,
ReplyDeleteI love The Messiah. Thank you for bringing it up because--as you have pointed out--it's very relevant to a lot of comments on Esther Hicks.
For those who don't know, as theoreticalgrrrl explained, The Messiah is a tv-documentary where illusionist Derren Brown shows how easy it is for him to dupe people into believing that he is doing something that is, to borrow bb's words, "just not human."
Oh yes, John Waddell, sorry about my typo: Neurocinema*.
ReplyDeleteClarity,
ReplyDeleteOh, you're right. This tooth fairy lady's going to be harder than I thought!
I just watched The Messiah and cannot recommend it highly enough.
ReplyDelete~
John W. said~
ReplyDeleteI don’t find this at all. The people I talk with are very excited about the new material coming through. A thoughtful person noted, “The beliefs of the researcher influence the results of the research.”
~
Maybe I should clarify John. Those of us feeling something was ‘off’ did ‘feel’ this pre spider bite. We were all enthusiastic Abers. We didn’t even discuss our perceptions of things being ‘off’ bc each of us assumed something was ‘off’ with us personally and not wanting to ‘beat the drum’ said nothing to each other. It’s only been in the last few weeks that we have discussed more openly, one on one, and amusingly found we were all feeling the same thing. I’m profoundly appreciative for the ‘rare brown leukluse’ story bc it got us all to talking in a more open manner.
But thanks for calling me thoughtful…ditto back at ya :)
Hi Kyra,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your response. Your questioning encourages me to think carefully and thoughtfully about these issues.
“Jerry and Esther have both said that they had never heard words “Law of Attraction” pre-Abraham. …it can be found on pg 133 of the book The Law of Attraction.”
If you look at page 132, you will see that he is referencing experiences “back in 1970,” Many years before Esther made her connection.
J&E readily admit and give credit to the authors of the earlier materials. When one gives credit, it’s not plagiarism in my view.
Re: the woman who was raped. “I would like to say two things here. First, people have similarly used God, even a wrathful one, to ease pain in situations like this. I'm sure there are a lot of stories you could tell someone to make them feel better, but it doesn't make them true.”
I agree completely. This was not about telling her a story, it was about her processing her thoughts and feelings about herself and connecting dots someone who experiences herself as a victim simply could not connect.
“Second, the fact that she has never been threatened by a man again does not necessarily have anything to do with her understanding of Law of Attraction.”
Again, I agree with you. It had to do with reaching a new understanding of herself.
“You can share some nice stories about how someone felt empowered by it, but regardless of what you told someone to make them feel better, the reality is that this ideology is encouraging people to take responsibility for things like cancer, rape, loss, etc. … If you cannot understand the damage that this can inflict on a person,…”
Looking at this from your perspective, my suggesting to my client to look at how she might have created her experience should have made her feel worse, guilty, etc. It did not. I do understand the inclination to self-blame, however. I never suggest to people they have created a negative event unless they indicate they are ready to explore this. When A-H tells people this, the people are either ready to hear it and appreciate the empowerment, or they say it’s BS and leave. In my view, it’s better that they do the latter than blame themselves.
“I don't think people should make claims about the scientific truth of this until they can sufficiently prove it. As of now, it has not been proven.”
I agree, but that cuts both ways. The most intellectually honest position a scientifically minded person would take is that science requires objective evidence. We do not have the tools to measure thoughts and feelings on an ongoing basis. Therefore, science can have no opinion regarding the Law of Attraction.
This is equally true for channeling. Science is a wonderful tool for measuring objective material reality. Scientists have not discovered methods for measuring non-physical events. They can try to make inferences based on how some hypothesized event might impact physical experience, but these are so tenuous that they are easily distorted by bias (e.g., if it can be done by trickery—physical means—it must have been done that way).
(Cont.)
ReplyDelete“As you even point out, "people are notoriously unreliable observers of their inner experience" and I would like to add that they are just as unreliable at observing their external experience. So even if science doesn't have the tools, people on their own have even less reliable tools. History has shown us how incredibly unreliable testimonies and anecdotes are.”
I partially agree with you. Much research has been done on observer bias, etc. However, if people had no capacity to be self-aware, all our decisions would be random. “Unreliable testimonies” are usually about highly stressful events (e.g., a car accident or robbery). I believe people are better observers of their experience when they are not under stress, and when they practice.
To take the stance that we are incapable of evaluating our life experiences, and of making informed philosophical and practical choices, I think is both disempowering and underestimating our capacities. Yes, you can fool people. (We have a number of links here to prove that.) But my experience is, if I’m willing to pay attention to my habitual thinking and how I feel, I can use that knowledge to guide me to better outcomes. And I can tell that this is happening.
When I practice reaching for a thought that feels better and take responsibility for everything I rendezvous with, my relationships become more positive and my daily happiness increases tremendously. This has happened so often for me that I’m quite satisfied as to the merit of doing these things. (I have also played in the stock market for a number of years. There’s no pretending there; what’s in my account is in my account. And I can’t blame the economy or any external event.)
I have made an effort to apply these principles since first studying the Nature of Personal Reality and have found the work of A-H incredibly helpful in thinking about and expanding my knowledge on how to practically apply these principles.
What most authorities have in common, is the message, “If you listen to me, your life will be better.” And on the surface, it appears as if A-H is saying that. However, they have often said, you don’t need to know anything about Abraham or the Law of Attraction; just looking for the best in everything will get you where you want to go. More importantly, their overriding message is, listen to your inner guidance, listen to your feelings, listen to your connection with Source. Unlike, teachers, parents, religious figures or government agencies, I have never heard them tell anyone what to do. They are always turning people back to their own knowing.
“In regards to Clarity's comment on their trademark claim of "Law of Attraction," I have written some on it here: Trademarking the Law of Attraction.”
Thank you for this reference. I value the Law of Attraction independent of J&E and am heartened by the trademark decision (since I use the phrase in the titles of my novels). J&E applied around the time of The Secret. There was a great deal of emotional drama about rights and contracts then. A-H often pointed out how Esther was not at her most mature level around this drama. I think they were frightened, and it was not a wise choice. However, for me, the value of the A-H material is independent of J&E. I don’t need them to be perfect to appreciate the material.
Hello there, I have not read all 79 comments, but wanted to throw this into the mix. I have heard Abraham say to take the path of least resistance. I have not heard them say that conventional medical treatments have no value. They have said in recordings I have heard, that it depends on the individual what treatment to use for any ailments that arise. I have never heard Abraham say that Jerry or Esther could not become ill. Anyone can, of course, and if Jerry chose chemo, that's his business.
ReplyDeleteThat said, it is too bad that they are so secretive about it. BUT that IS in keeping with their teachings. It doesn't surprise me that they are not putting in writing or voicing "Jerry has c----- because then that statement is reverberating throughout the universe, giving it more energy....
Either way, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. But let's not forget, they are PEOPLE who have FEELINGS just like you and I. And, if Esther is less willing to talk to everyone after a seminar, and doesn't want to answer questions about the illness of the man she loves, that is HER business.
Hey again John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteThis one is going to be divided up as well into a few parts.
"If you look at page 132, you will see that he is referencing experiences “back in 1970,” Many years before Esther made her connection."
I am not in disagreement that he was discussing his experiences in the 70s. That is my point. He was exposed to these materials about LOA pre-Abraham, despite his claim that he'd never heard of LOA pre-Abraham.
"J&E readily admit and give credit to the authors of the earlier materials. When one gives credit, it’s not plagiarism in my view."
There are certain things they do credit other authors with (Seth, Joseph Campbell, etc). The Law of Attraction is not one of them. They say that they had not heard of LOA until their experiences with Abraham. This is plagiarism because they are saying that it was Esther's inspiration (Abraham) that gave them the phrase "Law of Attraction." They are willing to say that other authors spoke these before them, but they don't credit them as being the source of this information. This is like if Janet Dailey said that she knew that Nora Roberts had written the same book, but she still had been inspired to hers completely separately.
"…This was not about telling her a story, it was about her processing her thoughts and feelings about herself and connecting dots someone who experiences herself as a victim simply could not connect.
"Again, I agree with you. It had to do with reaching a new understanding of herself."
There are plenty of religions and ideologies claiming that they have the best way to deal with these sorts of situations who have far more compelling testimonials than this. It does not add to the validity of the usefulness of anything.
"Looking at this from your perspective, my suggesting to my client to look at how she might have created her experience should have made her feel worse, guilty, etc. It did not. I do understand the inclination to self-blame, however. I never suggest to people they have created a negative event unless they indicate they are ready to explore this. When A-H tells people this, the people are either ready to hear it and appreciate the empowerment, or they say it’s BS and leave. In my view, it’s better that they do the latter than blame themselves."
(continued…)
(continued…)
ReplyDeleteThere are more options than just thinking something is BS or being ready to receive it. There is the possibility of convincing someone of this ideology and then later them starting to feel guilty about the things that they are creating. However, I agree that it is better that they "do the latter than blame themselves."
"I agree, but that cuts both ways. The most intellectually honest position a scientifically minded person would take is that science requires objective evidence. We do not have the tools to measure thoughts and feelings on an ongoing basis. Therefore, science can have no opinion regarding the Law of Attraction."
You could use this same logic about Hell. We can’t measure it, so science can’t have an opinion regarding it. We can’t measure demons, so science can’t have an opinion about them. We can’t measure a wrathful God, so science can’t have an opinion about it. You can fill anything you want to in there, including LOA. It doesn’t add to the credibility of it. It just adds it to a long list of things that have no scientific evidence supporting them. Just because we should have no scientific opinion of Hell doesn't mean that we should go around believing it is exists because there are authoritative voices saying it exists and that science can't measure it (I am using Hell as a metaphor because people do the same thing with it, or a wrathful God and plenty of other things).
"This is equally true for channeling. Science is a wonderful tool for measuring objective material reality. Scientists have not discovered methods for measuring non-physical events. They can try to make inferences based on how some hypothesized event might impact physical experience, but these are so tenuous that they are easily distorted by bias (e.g., if it can be done by trickery—physical means—it must have been done that way)."
My statement above is “equally true” regarding channeling. You can say that something is outside current scientific measurement (Christians have been doing it for years with God and Satan), but it doesn't add credibility to it.
Also, science does not think that just because something "can be done by trickery--physical means--it must have been done that way." Science would have us look at each claim individually. However, there is a matter of the more plausible hypothesis. Also, considering the amount of fraud that has been discovered—even admitted to—In the paranormal world, I would think it would just be wise to be skeptical and critical of these sorts of things in general.
(continued...)
(continued...)
ReplyDelete"I partially agree with you. Much research has been done on observer bias, etc. However, if people had no capacity to be self-aware, all our decisions would be random. “Unreliable testimonies” are usually about highly stressful events (e.g., a car accident or robbery)."
I just want to clarify here that there are a multitude of things that can lead to "unreliable testimonies."
"To take the stance that we are incapable of evaluating our life experiences, and of making informed philosophical and practical choices, I think is both disempowering and underestimating our capacities."
I'm saying that we should find intelligent, critical ways of evaluating experiences (that’s what science is reaching for), but I think that it is fair to say that there are a lot of things that effect people's memory and experiences that can give them erroneous ideas about the nature of reality.
"But my experience is, if I’m willing to pay attention to my habitual thinking and how I feel, I can use that knowledge to guide me to better outcomes. And I can tell that this is happening."
...or it could be a result of subjective validation.
"What most authorities have in common, is the message, “If you listen to me, your life will be better.” And on the surface, it appears as if A-H is saying that. However, they have often said, you don’t need to know anything about Abraham or the Law of Attraction; just looking for the best in everything will get you where you want to go. More importantly, their overriding message is, listen to your inner guidance, listen to your feelings, listen to your connection with Source. Unlike, teachers, parents, religious figures or government agencies, I have never heard them tell anyone what to do. They are always turning people back to their own knowing."
This does not add any validity to them. It’s more of a reason why you like them.
"I value the Law of Attraction independent of J&E and am heartened by the trademark decision (since I use the phrase in the titles of my novels). J&E applied around the time of The Secret. There was a great deal of emotional drama about rights and contracts then. A-H often pointed out how Esther was not at her most mature level around this drama. I think they were frightened, and it was not a wise choice. However, for me, the value of the A-H material is independent of J&E. I don’t need them to be perfect to appreciate the material."
Yes, I'm very aware of when and why it occurred. That doesn't change what it was. And you can let them off the hook for anything. For plagiarizing, for errors, for contradictions, but in the end, you could just as easily let any phony who was actually trying to dupe you off the hook using these same excuses.
(continued...)
(continued...)
ReplyDeleteWe are getting quite a conversation going. I appreciate that you are putting so much thought into your responses, John Waddell. I think you speak for what a lot of people who read this feel about all this.
Later,
kyra
Hey Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIndeed, your points have been answered in the mix of these comments.
To summarize: these materials claim to be able to help people prevent and cure disease (all disease). A lot of people buy these books in hopes that it will help them achieve perfect health. I think many will have a problem with the fact that the person who has been practicing these teachings since the beginning has not had much luck in that area.
As for Jerry choosing this as the path of least resistance, that's fine by me. He just better not expect me (or anyone else) to believe that the Abraham materials can actually do the things that they claim they can when even he is getting leukemia and racing for chemotherapy.
Also, it is not Esther who I am surprised is not discussing Jerry's situation. It is Abraham. They should be able to have an "in the vortex" discussion about it regardless of what is going on in Jerry and Esther's lives.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention that since this post, Abraham has discussed how Jerry attracted this. Something about hitting the mute button on the remote...
While there can be much debate on what is going on and how we should all respond there is a point that is being missed. If you take the teachings at face value (separating the message from the messenger) Abe says when ppl come to a workshop and ask in a powerful way the answer is always given…always. I know for a fact that there is a tremendous number of Abers that have asked for clarification on this finer point of the teachings re disease. According to Abe
ReplyDelete~listening to the meditation cd’s will put you in the vortex
~Jerry and Ester are addicted to the cd’s and listen to them all the time, multiple times throughout the day
~when you are in vibrational alignment disease has to leave your body no matter how serious the diagnosis
~give them an afternoon with anyone and disease will leave the body
So there are a lot of Abers that are wanting clarification on this issue. Not smarmy ex Abers but sincere ‘I love Abe’ Abers. With the advent of Abe live you not only have the participants in the workshop proper but participants from all over the world. They are asking for clarification. Abe has not had an ITV discussion about it. Where does that leave everything since it is contrary to the teachings? Please do not try and tell me the reason is it would add to the vibration of Jerry being sick bc that is contrary to the teachings. Please do not tell me to protect Jerry’s privacy bc an ITV discussion in depth could be minus what Jerry is experiencing. Besides, Jerry has set up the ‘Business of Abe’ and is the one benefiting the most from the propagation of the materials (along with Ester). When you set yourself up as CEO of all five branches of AH Publications and one of the core components is the disease issue then you most definitely do have a responsibility to your customers to answer questions about the reliability of the ‘product’.
There can be rationalizations for everything and I do understand rationalizations. I loved the idea that infinite intelligence was giving regular seminars and answering all our questions. Even more than that, I just liked Abe, I liked the whole warm and fuzzy feeling. I didn’t want to find out the things I did. I wanted to find out that ppl like Kyra, Dave, Connie, didn’t have a leg to stand on. I wanted to keep my idea of Abe. I do believe that when you ask the answers are given. I remember the day well when I said Source, I have to know, I demand answers. How I even came upon this blog is its own little magical mystery tour. When I first contacted Kyra privately I wanted to find out she was just a reactionary nay sayer with no foundation for her information. It was the same when I contacted Dave. What I found was a very solid foundation and information that held up under scrutiny. These were not the answers I was hoping for.
cont~
Everything that is happening via the Hicks camp is contrary to the core of the teachings. Yes, I know, look at the message and not the messenger. That Abe has not addressed the many that are summoning answers indicates to me Abe has ‘left the building’ and Ester is giving pat answers designed to keep the ‘Business of Abe’ going. For those that want to believe its real fine bc life is always about personal choices. I don’t need to change anyone’s mindset I just need to tend to my own. My intention is to keep to the core of the teachings that make so much sense to me (personally) and accept that there is the ‘Business of Abe’ that has a life of its own and bc of the business intention it clouds the transmissions and message. Yes, it is the message and not the messenger. Perhaps the ‘Business of Abe” has distorted the message. That is how it feels to me and as I have learned from the core teachings I have to go with that ‘gut’ feeling.
ReplyDeleteYou will never convince me that hundreds if not thousands have not asked about these issues and that Abe has not answered. That leaves me with where is Abe? I don’t have it in me to follow advice from a business endeavor. My quest is to know from an expanded perspective. That Abe or Ester just repeating other’s wisdoms has played a part in that journey I have much appreciation for. I ‘believe’ that by being willing to look at my own delusion I move closer to the connection with my source self. In the broadest sense of delusion we look for reasons to continue to believe in something we want to believe in. I wanted to believe in Abe, that Abe is still around and having regular broadcast. I mean, how cool is that? It was rather unsettling to find the connection with the advent of the concept of the vortex and the trademark of the term. It was unsettling to view the spider bite ruse. It was unsettling to learn of the way workshops were cancelled and how ppl were treated as a result. It was unsettling to look at a lot of things. What I found when the dust settled was a greater clarity and connection. For me personally to continue with the ‘Business of Abe’ would diminish the clarity I am seeking and even though sometimes it is painful to acknowledge self delusion the result is (for me) an expanding knowing. I appreciate everyone, Hicks, bloggers, friends that have contributed to this expansion.
To quote one of my favorites…it’s all good.
Actually, it could be that all the negative energy from scamming people finally created a disease in his body.
ReplyDeleteThat is kind of poetic, isn't it?
Thank you for this comment, Clarity. It reminded me of something very important. As much as I am not a fan of LOA, this blog has more to do with the validity (or lack thereof) of Abraham than it does with LOA. We can go back and forth about LOA all day, but the concept of LOA would still be around even if Jerry and Esther Hicks weren't. My main beef is with the Teachings of Abraham, which are separate from LOA. In fact, now that I think about it, LOA isn't even mentioned in their 12 Teachings in Brief.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is: LOA and channelers could be real phenomenon, and Abraham could still be fake.
Hi Kyra,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughtful response.
I’m not sure how we’re going to deal with the J&E claim that they had never heard of the Law of Attraction before Abraham. You gave me three pieces of evidence. I looked up one, and all it referred to was that Jerry hadn’t heard of the Law of Attraction in 1970, way before Abraham. So this doesn’t support your assertion. Where did “they say that they had not heard of LOA until their experiences with Abraham”?
Re: the woman coming to terms with her rape. “There are plenty of religions and ideologies claiming that they have the best way to deal with these sorts of situations who have far more compelling testimonials than this.”
I am not trying to make a testimonial about the Law of Attraction or trying to persuade anyone that my path is their best way to deal with life. I was simply responding to your point that people who takes responsibility for creating negative events feel guilt and blame. Some people feel empowered. (If they don’t feel empowered, it’s better to blame someone else. I think we agree on this.)
Re: science can have no opinion regarding the Law of Attraction. “You could use this same logic about Hell. We can’t measure it, so science can’t have an opinion regarding it.”
Exactly. The Law of Attraction and channeling are like Hell, Heaven, and God. Science requires objective evidence.
“Just because we should have no scientific opinion of Hell doesn't mean that we should go around believing it is exists because there are authoritative voices saying it exists and that science can't measure it.”
I agree completely. What I’m saying is that the fact that science can’t measure something says nothing about its validity or even its existence.
“Also, science does not think that just because something "can be done by trickery--physical means--it must have been done that way.”
Actually, it must say that. If science is going to address a phenomenon at all, it can only do so through the lens of the physical. Can a scientist really conclude something occurred due to a non-physical force?
Me: "But my experience is, if I’m willing to pay attention to my habitual thinking and how I feel, I can use that knowledge to guide me to better outcomes. And I can tell that this is happening."
Kyra: ...or it could be a result of subjective validation.
You are right. I could ignore those times when things get worse and remember the ones when it got better—and likely do. However, I use the same flawed observer with every approach I have explored, so it is reasonable to make a comparison. If I go to two different restaurants, I may minimize my negative experiences in both and amplify my positive experiences, but I’ll be able to tell which one I prefer. And if I can’t, I’m in real trouble, because science is not going to be able to tell me in which restaurant I’ll have more fun.
Hey again John,
ReplyDelete“Where did “they say that they had not heard of LOA until their experiences with Abraham”?”
In your previous response, I mistakenly thought you were talking about A New Beginning I (I seem to have not included the part where you were discussing The Law of Attraction), so I’m going to have to backtrack here. In The Law of Attraction pg 133, Jerry is discussing the Law of Attraction and the Deliberate Creation Process (the DCP we know comes from the Teachings of Abraham), and the dialogue is about how he was using both concepts without even realizing that’s what he was doing back in the 70s because he had “never heard the words before.” He is no more claiming that he knew about DCP in the 70s than he is that he knew about LOA.
As I stated in my initial response, Esther discusses this in Part III of her interview with Oprah. They (Jerry and Esther) also included, in their application for the trademark of LOA, a letter from their Project Coordinator, which says that the Hickses arbitrarily created the term “Law of Attraction.”
I was simply responding to your point that people who takes responsibility for creating negative events feel guilt and blame. Some people feel empowered. (If they don’t feel empowered, it’s better to blame someone else. I think we agree on this.)
I would agree that taking responsibility for things like rape and cancer can be incredibly damaging, and I will agree that people believing they are in control of their reality can be very empowering.
I agree completely. What I’m saying is that the fact that science can’t measure something says nothing about its validity or even its existence.
I have made my point on this front.
Actually, it must say that. If science is going to address a phenomenon at all, it can only do so through the lens of the physical.
Scientists come to erroneous conclusions all the time without being frauds or tricksters, so that is hardly what they must say when they can’t find the existence of something. For instance, there has been quackery in medicine without trickery.
Can a scientist really conclude something occurred due to a non-physical force?
Can they really conclude if something was the result of a judgmental God, rewarding the good and punishing the bad?
You are right. I could ignore those times when things get worse and remember the ones when it got better—and likely do. However, I use the same flawed observer with every approach I have explored, so it is reasonable to make a comparison.”
I don’t disagree. We all do these sorts of things all the time.
If I go to two different restaurants, I may minimize my negative experiences in both and amplify my positive experiences, but I’ll be able to tell which one I prefer. And if I can’t, I’m in real trouble, because science is not going to be able to tell me in which restaurant I’ll have more fun.
But none of this really has much to do with whether or not we should trust authoritative voices claiming to know about metaphysical laws, a nonphysical world, the existence of a Source, or any of the myriad of other untestable things that Abraham talks about. Even if science can’t answer these questions, that doesn’t suggest that Abraham can (or should).
Kyra, thank you for your response. I think we may be talking past each other a bit, so just to clarify: Are we agreed that science does not have the tools to evaluate either the Law of Attraction or channeling. So it has nothing to say regarding their validity or invalidity.
ReplyDeleteIf you agree, I have some other points to make. If you don’t, please let me know your perspective. Thanks.
Also, my intent here is not to try to prove anyone wrong. My hope is that all of us will gain a more sophisticated understanding of what we believe and why we believe it.
Hey John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteI figured this Abraham story about how Esther and Jerry claim the phrase Law of Attraction came to them would help:
"When Jerry and Esther began their work, Esther or Jerry had never heard the term Law of Attraction. They had never heard those words. Esther remembered Seth talking about like attracting like, but there was no definition about it, no explanation of it. So, Jerry, as he was reading the Seth materials, had all kinds of things written in the margins. You should see his books. He made spreadsheets. His desire to understand this was so powerful. They had a mattress with big spreadsheets under the mattress, and every night, Jerry would read the book and add to his spreadsheet, as he was trying to find Seth would say, ‘We'll talk about that later. We'll talk about it later.’ And Jerry would say, ‘Where the hell did you talk about it later?’ I cannot find this anywhere! So, when Esther began receiving, Jerry had all of these questions. He wanted to know, ‘If I create my own reality, how is that so?’ If my point of power is in the present, that's what Seth said. ‘Your point of power is in the present.’ Jerry said, ‘How is that so?’ What does that mean? What do I do...What do I do about it? And so, we have been answering that question for Jerry and others ever since. One day, early on in their experience, Jerry said, ‘So, Abraham, there is a law of gravity that we understand that has some sense of consistency. Are there other laws in the Universe that govern what happens, that if we were to understand those Laws, then we would have a basis of reference, a framework that we a framework that we could then consistently get similar results from. Something that’s always the same.’ Don’t you think that’s Don’t you think that’s an incredible question...? ‘Something that I will always know?’ And we’ve been answering that question ever since. And on that day, Esther heard for the first time, the word Law of Attraction come forth from her...”
- Abraham, San Diego, CA (03/10/2007)
Notice that they are not crediting Seth with giving them the phrase “the Law of Attraction.” In fact, they emphasize the fact that it was not given to them by Seth, and they are saying that those words did not come to them till their Abraham work (and that they had never heard them before). They are claiming that the phrase was inspired to them via Abraham. This is why it is plagiarism.
Hey John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteIf a person has the ability to acclimate their thoughts to a place where they can come into perfect alignment from disease, that is something we can prove (even if we cannot see the mechanism). This is how we know about the placebo effect. But it's not all that black and white. Some channelers make supernatural claims that can be tested. For instance, Sheila Gillette says she has some telekinetic powers. We can test that. However, I do agree that even if we discovered the possibility of these things, they would only prove the ability for us to do those specific things. They would not immediately prove everything else that goes along with them.
That said, I can agree that there are aspects of LOA and channeling that cannot be tested. They lack falsifiability, but again, I don't think that is in they're favor.
I appreciate your responses, and I completely agree that I see this more as a discussion than either one of us trying to convert the other. I think it's really helpful to be able to chew on ideas like this with others. I'm fairly confident than neither of us are going to budge much regardless of how much we chat, but it's fun nevertheless.
Hi Clarity,
ReplyDelete“When you set yourself up as CEO of all five branches of AH Publications and one of the core components is the disease issue then you most definitely do have a responsibility to your customers to answer questions about the reliability of the ‘product’.”
I think A-H will speak to the Jerry illness event. You may have noticed that over the years A-H have spoken much more about Esther’s peccadilloes than Jerry’s. Jerry’s illness may have increased our desire to know, but it hasn’t necessarily increased his desire to share personal information about himself. If people want to reject the teachings because either Jerry or Esther is not more forthcoming, or A-H is not more forthcoming about their personal experiences, that seems perfectly fine.
Like the rest of us, J&E have to consciously apply “the product” in their own lives. When they don’t and have unresolved false beliefs, they end up just like the rest of us. To me, this means the Law of Attraction is consistent. A-H never gives special dispensations. In fact, they never indicate they have any power to cure anyone in the hot seat. They always turn us back to our own power.
Jerry’s goal has always been to give everyone in the world access to Abraham. He has achieved that with the advent of the Internet broadcasts. I believe he also wants to make sure Esther is okay without him and can carry on their work. I’m not predicting anything, but I see a door being opened if he chooses to go through it.
“That Abe has not addressed the many that are summoning answers indicates to me Abe has ‘left the building’”
I have not experienced Esther’s connection being diminished in any way.
“My intention is to keep to the core of the teachings that make so much sense to me (personally)….”
If your turning away from J&E turns you to your own connection, your own knowing, that is wonderful. People talk about how great it feels to be on the cruises. I want to be at a place where going on an Abraham cruise feels the same way as I feel in my everyday life. I want to be in a place where it is a pleasure to listen to A-H but I’m constantly creating such a joyful life that it doesn’t matter if I hear them again or not. I also see a future where everyone’s conscious connection to the Wisdom of the Universe is as common as dreaming is now.
When I listen to A-H I feel good. When I practice the principles I feel good. If I hit a bump in the road, I use every resource available to reballance.
Jerry was very sick as a child and has been illness-free for all of his adult life until now. He has also run away from illness and continued to fear it. If he has achieved everything else he wanted to do, now is a good time to clean that up, before he takes off.
Kyra, thank you for that story. I also studied the Nature of Personal Reality and other Seth books intensely. Seth was very clear that you create your own reality, but I do not believe he used the phrase Law of Attraction or discussed reality creation in those terms. Rather, he addressed this extensively from the angle of beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI had heard of the “like unto like is drawn” concept from Hinduism, but I never connected it to the Seth material and it never meant much to me until I began to study A-H. I think J&E have done an amazing job of bringing this concept to life in our time.
To respond to your point, I don’t believe you will find this phrase in the Seth books Jerry would have been studying.
(I’ll respond to your other post tomorrow.)
Hey John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteThe only reason I stressed that they did not credit Seth with LOA was to emphasize the fact that they were not crediting anyone other than Esther's inspiration. I was in no way suggesting that the Law of Attraction is in the Seth materials (cause it's not), nor was I suggesting that this is where Jerry and Esther got Law of Attraction from. My only point in showing the story was to show that indeed they were saying that the Law of Attraction came from Esther's own inspiration--not other New Thought authors like the ones Jerry has admitted that he was exposed to in the 70s. This is where they plagiarized from--not the Seth materials.
I feel like some of what I was saying about plagiarism has been lost in all this back and forth, so let me restate it:
ReplyDelete1. Jerry and Esther Hicks claim they had never heard of LOA pre-Abraham.
2. LOA is a popular New Thought concept that was written on--by name--by authors like Ernest Holmes, Charles Fillmore, and Napoleon Hill.
3. Jerry admits that all three of these authors were his early "mentors" (all before he ever met Abe).
4. Jerry and Esther do not credit any of these authors, who had the idea way before them, as being the source of their information. They only credit Abraham (Esther's "inspiration").
5. That's plagiarism.
Re: plagiarism.
ReplyDelete“…‘So, Abraham, there is a law of gravity that we understand that has some sense of consistency. Are there other laws in the Universe that govern what happens, that if we were to understand those Laws, then we would have a basis of reference, a framework that we a framework that we could then consistently get similar results from. Something that’s always the same.’ Don’t you think that’s Don’t you think that’s an incredible question...? ‘Something that I will always know?’ And we’ve been answering that question ever since. And on that day, Esther heard for the first time, the word Law of Attraction come forth from her...”
- Abraham, San Diego, CA (03/10/2007)
Kyra, read that above carefully. Lets agree that Jerry had read the books you describe and that he had heard about the Law of Attraction (along with many other ideas) in these books. Here he is talking with A-H about laws of the universe, “Are there other laws in the Universe that govern what happens.” This seems like a reasonable question to ask a source of Universal Wisdom.
This is followed by the decisive quote, “And on that day, Esther heard for the first time, the word Law of Attraction come forth from her...”
Note, that A-H does not say that this is the first time Jerry heard about the Law of Attraction. Remember, Jerry is the one who read all these books and immersed himself in them. Esther shied away from all that stuff. The Seth books (which we agree do not use that concept) were the first that Esther allowed herself to be exposed to.
Jerry may or may not have previously mentioned the Law of Attraction. If he did, it is likely Esther didn’t care or even wanted to avoid the topic. They really only began exploring metaphysical material together with the Seth books.
So, it seems very reasonable to me that the decisive quote is true. That is not plagiarism.
1. Jerry and Esther Hicks claim they had never heard of LOA pre-Abraham.
None of the evidence you have presented supports this claim.
4. Jerry and Esther do not credit any of these authors, who had the idea way before them, as being the source of their information. They only credit Abraham (Esther's "inspiration").
If you have any evidence to support this, please share it with us.
In my experience, Jerry and Esther not only credit these authors for their work, they praise them. J&E have added tremendously to my and others’ understanding of the Law of Attraction, and they deserve to take credit for their work in expanding knowledge about this topic.
“When Jerry and Esther began their work, Esther or Jerry had never heard the term Law of Attraction. They had never heard those words.”
ReplyDelete- Abraham, San Diego, CA (03/10/2007)
It says clearly in the story above that Jerry and Esther had never heard the words Law of Attraction before and then goes into a story of when Esther received the word Law of Attraction for the first time, through her. There really is no way of getting around that.
Kyra, you are absolutely right regarding the contradiction between what we know Jerry had studied and that first sentence. I was so focused on the end of the story that I completely missed this. Thanks.
ReplyDelete“If a person has the ability to acclimate their thoughts to a place where they can come into perfect alignment from disease, that is something we can prove (even if we cannot see the mechanism).”
ReplyDeleteKyra, I don’t see how science can prove this. What we would have before as would be a person who was sick and is now well, without any external intervention—in other words, the placebo effect. The person could claim that the healing occurred because they aligned their thoughts. Someone else could claim that sometimes the body just heals and it was a random event, that is, one in x is bound to get better no matter what we do. Someone else could claim the person was healed because their family prayed for them. As I see it, if we can’t measure thoughts (or vibration as that term is used in relation to the Law of Attraction), we cannot draw any scientific conclusions.
Kyra, I don’t see how science can prove this. What we would have before as would be a person who was sick and is now well, without any external intervention—in other words, the placebo effect. The person could claim that the healing occurred because they aligned their thoughts. Someone else could claim that sometimes the body just heals and it was a random event, that is, one in x is bound to get better no matter what we do. Someone else could claim the person was healed because their family prayed for them. As I see it, if we can’t measure thoughts (or vibration as that term is used in relation to the Law of Attraction), we cannot draw any scientific conclusions.
ReplyDeleteI am in agreement with you about much of this. This is why I said that we could prove the event occurred, but not the mechanism (in this case, we are saying LOA is the mechanism). I was merely saying that we could prove that a people could come into alignment from something like HIV. We could get a lot of HIV-positive patients to use a placebo and others to use, say, the Abraham materials. If the Abraham materials resulted in people becoming HIV-negative, that would constitute proof, not of the validity of the materials, but of the ability for people to release HIV using the materials. But I am in agreement that this would not prove the mechanism of LOA (or even the materials) because LOA lacks falsifiability.
This is Anon 8, as Clarity referred to me--I made the several posts much earlier about my personal one-on-one experience with Abe (for MORE than one afternoon!) set-up by J&E without my specific request--with Abe telling me that all was well with me--that I just needed a little "tweaking" >>that would take place in our time together<< when "all being well with me," could NOT have been FURTHER from the truth! I have first-hand experience that "an afternoon with us" is, pardon the slang, a crock.
ReplyDeleteKyra, Clarity...I SO enjoy your *refreshing and exemplary* insightful, logical and pragmatic comments given with intent to be respectful and fair. I wish there could be a continuous intermittent reminder to old and new readers alike that you both were "Abers" at one time. That fact truly makes all the difference and gives you great credibility--it's unfortunate when newcomers don't know or others forget that.
Although it's inherent in exchanges like this (or most any exchange taking place between strangers or customer service reps these days) that responders will gloss over, forget or ignore strong, basic points made by others which then cause distortion and dilutes their response.
John--your posts are thoughtful and respectful. However, I'm using one of your comments to me personally as a contrasting example to Kyra and Clarity. For instance, in responding to my clarification post you say: "Anonymous, you seem to get it that you made your own choices." SEEM? Could I have been any more clear in my words? That's history in this exchange, but, again, an example of the contrast between Kyra & Clarity's spot-on, specific responses and the "fuzzy" ones. (John, I mean no more disrespect than you meant in your comment--that's not a back-handed remark, but sincerely said.)
I started a long reply/rebuttal to your comments to my posts but felt it useless. However, since I'm posting again I have to mention the most inciting of your comments: "Esther/Abraham giving you a personal false dx and everyone else doing the same, indicates that no one can trump your vibration, not even Abraham." This is a perfect example of giving personal judgment based on glossing over and distorting. I didn't say I was given a false dx by everyone--only ongoing mishandling. MOST OF ALL, you say "even Abraham" couldn't trump my vibration." WHAT? That is EXACTLY what Abraham told me they would do (in my more than "an afternoon " with them) and what they have repeatedly stated to everyone in their "spend an afternoon with us" power. --The point being you, a long-time Aber, ignoring the "fact" that Abraham has repeatedly stated their power over a human's vibration.
[Forgive me, new readers. But in entering the comments again--I had to "clean-up that vibration" that was still clattering with John's distorted response to my clarification.]
Actually, this post is in contrast to that, being about the exceptional qualities that both Kyra and Clarity display in their responses. I only wish I could've spent the same amount of personal time with you two that I spent with Abraham.
BRAVO! for your consistency and constancy of logic, fairness and respect!
But why so much time debating LOA? We all have differing opinions. I believe this thread was to discuss Abe??? Kyra doesn't have a problem with anyone believing in LOA (or she would have booted me out long ago *grin*).
ReplyDeleteSo we agree to disagree. Personally I'm more interested in the Abe issues that seem to get lost in all the LOA back and forth. Start a LOA debate blog if it is that important.
Anon 8 - I trust, Clarity, your LOA comment was written before you read my last post, as I didn't intend it to be about LOA per se.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree with you more on leaving the LOA debate for another thread!
Oh hey Anon 8 *wave*~
ReplyDeleteGood heavens no my reply was not to your post. My reply was sitting in limbo land and your post had not appeared.
Thanks for bringing this back to Abe…like huge thanks.
And yeah, the trump your vibration thing…that one left me scratching my head going wtf?
xxxooo
Hey Anon 8,
ReplyDeleteGlad I can call you by a name now. It was hard keeping track of all the Anonymouses.
I made the several posts much earlier about my personal one-on-one experience with Abe (for MORE than one afternoon!) set-up by J&E without my specific request--with Abe telling me that all was well with me--that I just needed a little "tweaking" >>that would take place in our time together<< when "all being well with me," could NOT have been FURTHER from the truth! I have first-hand experience that "an afternoon with us" is, pardon the slang, a crock.
Preach it, Anon 8!
I wish there could be a continuous intermittent reminder to old and new readers alike that you both were "Abers" at one time. That fact truly makes all the difference and gives you great credibility--it's unfortunate when newcomers don't know or others forget that.
I agree. There is this odd, pernicious idea that some commenters seem to have that people like me and Clarity are criticizing these things without having experienced them, and nothing could be further from the truth.
"Esther/Abraham giving you a personal false dx and everyone else doing the same, indicates that no one can trump your vibration, not even Abraham." This is a perfect example of giving personal judgment based on glossing over and distorting. I didn't say I was given a false dx by everyone--only ongoing mishandling. MOST OF ALL, you say "even Abraham" couldn't trump my vibration." WHAT? That is EXACTLY what Abraham told me they would do (in my more than "an afternoon " with them) and what they have repeatedly stated to everyone in their "spend an afternoon with us" power. --The point being you, a long-time Aber, ignoring the "fact" that Abraham has repeatedly stated their power over a human's vibration.
[Forgive me, new readers. But in entering the comments again--I had to "clean-up that vibration" that was still clattering with John's distorted response to my clarification.]
Oh, but Anon 8, you misunderstand. In the Teachings of Abraham, it is, has always been, and always will be your fault. No matter what the teachings profess or what claims Abraham has made, anything that does not work out for you, is your fault. Abraham can never be held accountable for anything! Isn’t that great?! ; )
Actually, this post is in contrast to that, being about the exceptional qualities that both Kyra and Clarity display in their responses. I only wish I could've spent the same amount of personal time with you two that I spent with Abraham.
BRAVO! for your consistency and constancy of logic, fairness and respect!
You are far to generous in your praise of me, though I admit that Clarity is one of the most amazing people that I have had the pleasure of discussing these--and other--topics with. There are so many things that we completely disagree about, but we are always fun and playful about it whenever we talk. I’m a little bit country, and she’s a little bit rock-and-roll.
That said, you have been amazing. Anyone who shares their experiences with this stuff, knowing that they are going to be critiqued and scrutinized by Abers and non-Abers alike, is alright in my book.
I trust, Clarity, your LOA comment was written before you read my last post, as I didn't intend it to be about LOA per se. - Anon 8
ReplyDeleteGood heavens no my reply was not to your post. - Clarity
My bad. It just had to do with when I approved them.
I agree with both of you that all this talk of LOA has deviated from the real discussion, which is the Abraham Hicks scam.
Well then~let's rock and roll :)
ReplyDeleteKyra said~
ReplyDeleteThat said, you have been amazing. Anyone who shares their experiences with this stuff, knowing that they are going to be critiqued and scrutinized by Abers and non-Abers alike, is alright in my book.
~
I so TOTALLY resemble that remark!
KUDOS
@ Anon 8
ReplyDelete*wave again* :)
Like I have a million questions. Ask Kyra, I'm a question whore. I'll have to write them later and I do realize you might not be able to answer them here but what the heck, won't know unless I try. Or you could get Anon 8 gmail...names changed to protect the innocent sorta thing. God I am bursting with questions...like really bursting :)
Me: Anonymous, you seem to get it that you made your own choices. Thank you for sharing more of your story than just the rant against J&E. Since I look at things in terms of the Law of Attraction….
ReplyDeleteSEEM? Could I have been any more clear in my words?
Anon 8 I’m glad you do not think I meant you any disrespect. I didn’t and don’t. Perhaps I used the word “seem” unadvisedly, but you had just gone on a long rant blaming J&E. As I stated, I look at things in terms of the Law of Attraction. I can’t do that and at the same time blame other people for my experiences. Insofar as you were blaming them and also taking responsibility, you “seemed” to get it, but not all the way.
This is a perfect example of giving personal judgment based on glossing over and distorting. I didn't say I was given a false dx by everyone--only ongoing mishandling. MOST OF ALL, you say "even Abraham" couldn't trump my vibration." WHAT? That is EXACTLY what Abraham told me they would do (in my more than "an afternoon" with them) and what they have repeatedly stated to everyone in their "spend an afternoon with us" power. --The point being you, a long-time Aber, ignoring the "fact" that Abraham has repeatedly stated their power over a human's vibration.
I’m not familiar with their “spend an afternoon with us.” Since I have had contact with the teachings, they have only given one day seminars. I have never heard A-H say they have power over anyone’s vibration. They have discussed the power of influence. I heard people trying to get A-H to make things happen for them or to use special power to help them, but A-H has always turned hot-seaters back to their own beliefs and thought. They have helped people move up the EGS, but it was clearly understood (at least by me) that the feeling better was momentary and it was up to the hot-seater to keep it going.
If you were studying with them at a time when J&E were setting session up for people and spending a whole afternoon with them and more, this was way before my time. If they told you at that time that A-H had power over your vibration, unless it was simply their influence while you were in A-H’s presence, this would be extremely inconsistent with the teachings that I’ve heard. In my view, if that is what A-H told you, Esther was getting her own beliefs in the mix.
I’m not familiar with their “spend an afternoon with us.”
ReplyDelete"We could take an example of the person who is noted by medical doctors to be the sickest of the sick, and if we could hold them in suspended attention for an afternoon, their diagnosis would change."
05/17/2003 Boston, MA
In my view, if that is what A-H told you, Esther was getting her own beliefs in the mix.
That's an easy way to make Abraham not accountable for any error, contradiction, or inconcistency that may arise.
05/17/2003 Boston, MA
ReplyDeleteKyra, I’m truly impressed how you come up with these quotes. However, I will wait to hear what Anon 8 says about these afternoon sessions. And, Anon, thank you for posting how you felt about what I said and what you were told by A-H.
Me: In my view, if that is what A-H told you, Esther was getting her own beliefs in the mix.
That's an easy way to make Abraham not accountable for any error, contradiction, or inconsistency that may arise.
I think it would help here if I told you my view of channeling. I discuss it in an article here (http://exm.nr/kvd1OR), but I want to make some additional points. When people are in the hotseat, they often think they are talking to Abraham. They are not. As A-H points out, Esther receives a block of thought and then interprets this and speaks words. (BTW, I usually use A-H here because I want to make the point, it’s never just Abraham; it’s always inner wisdom interpreted by Esther.)
It’s akin to listening to someone call a baseball game on the radio. We get to hear what they notice and what they make of it. If we were actually at the game, we might notice some different things and interpret them differently.
I’ve known a number of channelers at different levels of expertise. Of the public channelers I’ve known, only two have interested me enough to read extensively, Jane Roberts and Esther. Their communications are extremely “clean” in my view. That is, they introduce very little distortion. But they are human and have their own views. It has also been my perception, as with any skill, people get better at it as they have more experience. Esther’s voice, for example, seems more distorted to me in the earlier tapes.
Part of the information you presented in your Abraham Skeptic blog, as evidence that Abraham is made up, was “their bogus predictions of global disasters in the late 80s.”
From my perspective, this has less to do with inner wisdom screwing up and more to do with what was on Esthers’ (and many others around her) mind at the time. You are up on this much more than I am, but I believe they said the energy dissipated. (I would also look at it in Seth terms as switching probabilities, but that is another topic.)
The point is, because of my background with channelers at different levels, I don’t expect them to be perfect in interpreting inner wisdom. I look for what is meaningful to me and for the overall message. I’ve also heard and read some pretty distorted messages.
Finally, from my perspective, there is no Abraham beyond the convenience of giving this inner communication an appellation. Others may call it Jesus or whatever symbolic name rings true for them. The energy of Seth was expressed as one consistent personality, but it was much broader than what that personality had conscious access to while in physical form.
As I note in my article, I believe we all have access to this inner stream of wisdom. In my view, what we get depends on how good we are at listening, what level of information we are aligned with, and how much we can keep our preconceptions out of the way.
@ Anon 8
ReplyDeleteOkay, here are my questions *hopeful* :)
~there was a time Abe gave private sessions. Was this during that time?
~was it for free or fee? If fee, how much?
~how long did the session last?
~what did it feel like to be one on one with Abe?
~what was the session like to raise your vibration to offset your condition? Was there back and forth dialogue like the hotseat?
~did you get the feeling that Ester ‘believed’ she was transmitting Abe?
~what was Jerry’s role during the session?
~were the sessions back to back or with days in between?
~why did you require more than one session?
~were you pronounced ‘cured’?
~how long after the sessions ended before you felt ‘not cured’?
I have more questions but don’t want to scare you off *grin*. This is just such a golden opportunity for me to ask things I’ve been dying to ask someone. If you can’t answer it’s okay. I’ll get my script for anti depressants refilled and I’ll be fine *sob* just fine…don’t worry about me *sob*, no really, I’ll be fine~probably.
John, sorry for the confusion over the afternoon thing. It was never about actually having an afternoon session personally with Abe, but taken from the exact quote Kyra was quick to provide--this was said more than once. It just so happened I actually did spend an afternoon with them...
ReplyDeleteHey again John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteKyra, I’m truly impressed how you come up with these quotes.
Thank you. I’m fairly vigorous in my research. And I'm impressed by your willingness to listen to me ramble on and on like this ; )
Of the public channelers I’ve known, only two have interested me enough to read extensively, Jane Roberts and Esther. Their communications are extremely “clean” in my view. That is, they introduce very little distortion. But they are human and have their own views. It has also been my perception, as with any skill, people get better at it as they have more experience. Esther’s voice, for example, seems more distorted to me in the earlier tapes.
I just want to say here that there is actually no way of assessing how “clean” they are. All channelers would believe—and their followers would believe—they are the purest translation of whatever they allege they speak for. Even if we were accessing the information ourselves, we would have no way of assessing whether or not there was anything “clean” about it.
From my perspective, this has less to do with inner wisdom screwing up and more to do with what was on Esthers’ (and many others around her) mind at the time. You are up on this much more than I am, but I believe they said the energy dissipated. (I would also look at it in Seth terms as switching probabilities, but that is another topic.)
I feel like I was fairly thorough in my discussion about it, but I'll try to express it again (perhaps with more clarity).
In 1993, Abraham admitted that they had strongly expected that realignment was going to occur (two different times), and then the energy subsided:
"In the fall of 1988, the crescendo of that energy was such that it was our very strong expectation that you were right upon it, but that energy has subsided" - 05/16/1993 workshop
They also say this about their expectation that it would occur in 1990 (in this same recording). At the least, this “very strong expectation” was incorrect. As for the energy dissipating, in ANBI they said that energy dissipated, but even in their revision of ANBI, they explained that the earth changes would still occur (only this time, they said they did not know when).
They mentioned that this was something we could not change:
“Just as you cannot gather together and intend that the sun will not rise in the morning or that winter will not come in this year, the stopping of this realignment is also outside of your creative control.” -- pg 90 ANBI
They also said that we had chosen to be here during the time of realignment to experience it.
Now, Abraham says that the confusion around ANBI was because people misunderstood it. They say that they were just discussing the continual realignment that the planet is always undergoing. However, it is very clear from the text, and from their admitting that their expectation of timing was off (twice), that they were talking about a specific event—(in their words: “a sort of simultaneous event” –pg 80 of ANBI) not just a continual realignment of the planet. In fact, according to Abraham, it only happened like this every 26,000 years. They also talked about what was supposed to happen weeks and months after particular occurrences that were supposed to effect specific states.
You talk about looking to Seth’s probable realities, but when confronted about their predictions of “earth changes,” since 1993, Abraham has never suggested that anything has changed about their predictions from ANBI.
(continued...)
(continued...)
ReplyDeleteThe point is, because of my background with channelers at different levels, I don’t expect them to be perfect in interpreting inner wisdom. I look for what is meaningful to me and for the overall message. I’ve also heard and read some pretty distorted messages.
If channeling is a real phenomenon, I don’t think we are actually able to gauge which messages are distorted. After all, there are lots of people who listen to channelers who think that Abraham is the one with the distorted message.
Finally, from my perspective, there is no Abraham beyond the convenience of giving this inner communication an appellation. Others may call it Jesus or whatever symbolic name rings true for them. The energy of Seth was expressed as one consistent personality, but it was much broader than what that personality had conscious access to while in physical form.
I would say all this begs the question. It isn’t beyond our imagination to contemplate charlatans making up stories about other worlds. There are people who have confessed to doing just that.
Clarity...please excuse my failing to respond to your first request for email communication--I've missed following here a few days.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to have an email exchange with a kindred question whore like myself. In moments of intense frustration, I'd wail to Abraham--"Jerry could *not* have more questions than I--why is MY spouse not channeling you ? ? ?"
I'm stuck on aol--tried to leave many times, but as is said, "we stay in hell 'cause we know our way around." I wouldn't mind you having my email address--Kyra has it, but may not know now which is mine. I'll send it to her.
Because the circumstances were unique which brought about my personal time w/Abe, I *voluntarily* promised (because I was so grateful at the time) not to reveal them. Now that I *know* the integrity of the promise was far greater than the integrity of the ones to whom I promised, I have no problem referring to the meeting in the general terms I have or in answering your questions more specifically in a private/confidential exchange.
I'll offer general answers in my next post.
Hey Anon 8,
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly confident about who this is, but if you could send me an email just to confirm it's you, then I'll pass it along to Clarity.
General answers to Clarity's questions are:
ReplyDelete~there was a time Abe gave private sessions. Was this during that time? --> No, mine was in the last few years, they ceased private sessions probably at least 15 years or more prior.
~was it for free or fee? If fee, how much? --> Free
~how long did the session last?
--> more than one afternoon
~what did it feel like to be one on one with Abe?
--> I want to answer in some length here because I've intended to support Kyra's well-expressed theory about the evolution and de-evolution of Abe. Like Kyra and others she's lately learned feel the same (!) my husband I noticed a *distinct* degeneration of "Abraham" after The Secret.
I was pleasantly surprised to hear Kyra voice nearly *the very same* conclusions I had come to! The only difference was Kyra's more likely theory that Jerry & Esther somehow created an opening that these "teachers" could "wiggle" through. I'd thought that Jerry & Esther had somehow "qualified" (pre-birth?) to be the voice of non-physical teachers for the evolution and simplification of the Seth teachings.
I began listening to "Abraham" in 1998, and my husband and I attended our first workshop that year--there were about 25-30 attendees. Neither of us have *ever* had any psychic or "energy" experience--nor expected one! But when Esther did her thing, opened her eyes and spoke as Abraham, my husband and I both felt an undeniable energy rush and a lump in our throats. (We didn't know we both did till we compared notes at the break.) There was a detectable difference in the room.
We cont'd to attend the workshops every year...until in 2007, we realized the "rush" was GONE. "Flat" is the very same word we used. In that workshop or one soon after, someone in the hotseat actually asked why she didn't feel Abraham coming in anymore and was told it was because her vibration had raised so much, she no longer detected the difference. ?
Back to Kyra's theory... I do believe non-physical communication has and does exist through time from unreliable sketchy--to strong currents like Seth through Jane Roberts--or the Urantia material. The volume of detail just seems like *much-too-much* to come from one woman's little mind, or the *massive* Urantia work from one human mind as well. I felt the same about "simple" Esther--the Abraham message and responses were too spontaneous and consistent--without the natural human hemmming and hawing--to be simply Esther programmed by Jerry. She'd just have to hesitate, vary, misword *some.* (Not talking about contradictions here--just delivery.) It was that, that reassured me there was more going on here than Esther & Jerry. *However,* after 2006-07, the messages seemed no longer fresh and so many analogies and phrases were repeated in each next workshop/recording I sometimes had to turn them off--the growing regurgitation Kyra refers to. I noticed then, that now if Esther were ever unable to perform, I could be her stand-in because I knew exactly what Abraham's response would be to any questioner.
I speculated to my husband that it seemed the "flat" began occuring after The Secret when Jerry really cranked up the money machine. I concluded that Jerry's freewill decision to do that, in a sense, disqualified them from receiving the benevolently simple/intended to guide and help messages from the non-physical teachers, and as I believe Kyra stated...Abraham left the buidling...but only after Esther had been programmed by their presence long enough to carry on--and thus the changes to more human-like conduct from her.
> To finally answer that question, being one-on-one with Abraham felt FLAT.
cont'd
ReplyDelete~what was the session like to raise your vibration to offset your condition? > I was not in session with them because of a bodily condition--but a much more general purpose. I took advantage of the session to address that I had some starting symptoms I was worried could become "more" without my proper alignment. They then delivered their assurance that all was very well with me, that I just needed some tweaking that would take place in our time together and that I need do nothing after I left--to "just chill."
Was there back and forth dialogue like the hotseat? --> exactly
~did you get the feeling that Ester ‘believed’ she was transmitting Abe? --> Unsure, but during the session, both my husband and I (I took him with me) absolutely felt Esther was too emotionally invested and was overriding Abraham. At that point in time, we had not yet seen enough difference in the workshops to realize Abe was likely gone.
~what was Jerry’s role during the session? --> Same role as in the workshop--he took notes continuously and every now and then offered an anecdote.
~were the sessions back to back or with days in between? --> Back to back.
~why did you require more than one session? --> The reason for the session was set-up by Jerry--he determined the session's length.
~were you pronounced ‘cured’?
--> Plse refer to my earlier explanation.
~how long after the sessions ended before you felt ‘not cured’?
--> As explained, I didn't know at the time I needed an actual "cure." Because I was given the personal word from Abe that all was well with me, I called the growing symptoms non-threatening, just evidence I was falling out of alignment---more work. But primarily, I wouldn't let myself seek medical evaluation because I fully understood (not by brainwashing) Abraham's premise that getting a diagnosis would "shine a spotlight" on it and my fear would let it get bigger. I was terrified that if I was moving out of alignment with some more symptoms, I surely could never overcome an actual scary "diagnosis!" I spent almost *3 years* in the hell of that quandary until (what I think was a "Divine" hand intervened) and I experienced a new symptom that rushed me to the doctor JUST IN TIME!
OH FANTASTIC
ReplyDelete@ Anon 8
ReplyDeleteMy "fantastic" post was in response to your email acceptance. Gotta get Kyra in line here, she approves the post bass/ackwards *grin*.
And for ha, clarity, I was the one who said wiggled thru etc. Kyra doesn't think Abe ever was.
The Abe that blew me away was Portland vid June 2005. Didn't even realize for over a year there was parts 2 and 3...heard part 1 and things changed in wonderful ways.
Some of the Abeways these past few years times I think i see 'something' like when it happens even Ester seems surprised. These last ones for what, the past year or more all the answers are the same, every last one. Then again I don't listen to them all, so they may all be like that longer than I realize. When they started the vortex thing it sent me thru the roof. Took me a long time to adjust to that one and now I know why.I posted on Dave's blog about the recent Chicago Abeway where a woman had some beloved animal die. Didn't take much for Ester to cold read that one. The woman was trying so hard not to completely loose it and I've never seen Ester look so bored, detached. When she was finished with her spiel the woman said thank you and Ester didn't even say anything, even smile at her, did we get there for you, anything, just looked out to the audience for the next hotseater. I found it very cold.
When you were with the Hicks before the session did you feel any genuine warmth from them just as ppl? I mean, I'm generally warm around ppl and have a sincere interest in them. What are they like? I was not the only one to observe that in Jerry’s opening spiel where he does the omg, look, the chair is taped to the floor (duh) and tosses the chime onto the table, sometimes just missing Ester that it looked like a lot of tension between them. Ester looked like she wanted to bean him. On the first live Jerry was introducing the crew and got the name of the sound man wrong, Ester corrected him and did not look pleased. From Dave’s blog I read there is quite a bit of tension not only between E and J but Tracy and J. In The Secret Behind the Secret, extended version with the edited out parts Jerry goes into a story about an ex girlfriend and Ester got very irritated, said we don’t need to go there but ha, he carried on with his gf story anyway.
I only recently found out there was a Barbara and I think I know who she is from one of the live Abeways doing Jerry's role (monthly subscriptions etc). She 'looks like' a real snob...true or false? I'm just trying to get a feel for the Hicks camp bc they are all supposedly Abers and one would think kinda flying high most of the time. I mean heck, by following the core teachings I've been flying pretty darn high. But it 'seems' like there is a hierarchy going on with the minions, (customers), and the elite. I felt it at the one workshop I attended, pleasant faces but not the connection. Scott however seemed very genuine.
Any questions out of line for public forum we can banter later. Not sure what is copacetic 'here' with your comfort zone. Kyra doesn't care *wink*.
And yes John, I know message and messenger separate. Message has felt off to more than a few of us for some time. Actually the Abe I ‘grew up on’ was vids from pre Secret extravaganza. My god, The Secret both versions was so bad I couldn’t even make it half way thru. Was almost as bad as What the Bleep.
~
Anon 8, thank you for sharing your personal experience.
ReplyDelete~did you get the feeling that Ester ‘believed’ she was transmitting Abe? --> Unsure, but during the session, both my husband and I (I took him with me) absolutely felt Esther was too emotionally invested and was overriding Abraham.
Given the unusual nature or this contact with A-H, with J&E initiating the session rather than you, it would make sense that Esther would not be as dispassionate. This would add some energy to including her own desires into the message.
"We could take an example of the person who is noted by medical doctors to be the sickest of the sick, and if we could hold them in suspended attention for an afternoon, their diagnosis would change."
05/17/2003 Boston, MA
My take on the A-H quote is, if one were to hold suspended attention for a full afternoon (away from the illness) that energy would dissipate. This is quite consistent with my view of the Law of Attraction.
My take on, “if we could” is that they can’t, not at least without the person’s intense cooperation. Again, the power of influence. Jesus had it, as well as other healers. But, as A-H has pointed out on numerous occasions, if their thoughts would begin to shift back, if the people went home and told others, for example, they would be sick again.
I’m speaking in general terms here, Anon, not trying to say what you did. In fact, both from your experience of Esther in the session and “I was not in session with them because of a bodily condition--but a much more general purpose,” if the event was an attempt to hold you in suspended attention away from your illness, it didn’t work very well.
I believe when we go to a physician and are healed, it is because we are in alignment with healing and they are the avenue that helps us manifest this. We appreciate them for their intervention.
You were not healed, and the avenue through which that non-healing manifested was with the help of J&E. And you do not appreciate them for their intervention.
Me: From my perspective, this has less to do with inner wisdom screwing up and more to do with what was on Esthers’ (and many others around her) mind at the time.
ReplyDeleteIn 1993, Abraham admitted that they had strongly expected that realignment was going to occur (two different times), and then the energy subsided.
-snip-
Now, Abraham says that the confusion around ANBI was because people misunderstood it. They say that they were just discussing the continual realignment that the planet is always undergoing.
Kyra, if you have one of your amazing quotes here, I would appreciate it.
However, it is very clear from the text, and from their admitting that their expectation of timing was off (twice), that they were talking about a specific event.
Thanks for your summation, Kyra. I have wished for a more in-depth explanation from A-H regarding this earth-shattering prediction that didn’t manifest for us (thankfully). My take on it is that the train was heading toward major earth changes—many people felt this—and that, as A-H said, the energy dissipated or shifted.
Maybe there was a caveat that didn’t get into the books, along the lines of, “This is where things are headed but there are always different possible outcomes. The train can switch tracks. You can’t make that happen on your level, but things can still change.” However, the message came across as absolute: “We’re Abraham, we know, and this is going to happen.”
For me, the message being wrong about a prediction that involves so many people does not take away from their knowledge of the Law of Attraction and how it affects our lives. If I were going to them for predictions, I would never go back. But that is not what appeals to me about their teachings.
If my plumber predicts that the sewage system in Columbus is going to go down, and nothing happens, that doesn’t mean I can’t trust him to know how to unclog my sink.
Which brings us to a really big issue: How can we determine that Abraham, or our plumber, has the expertise (and honesty) to be worthy of our trust?
Kyra, again, thanks for your research in this area.
Me: Of the public channelers I’ve known, only two have interested me enough to read extensively, Jane Roberts and Esther. Their communications are extremely “clean” in my view. That is, they introduce very little distortion.
ReplyDeleteI just want to say here that there is actually no way of assessing how “clean” they are. All channelers would believe—and their followers would believe—they are the purest translation of whatever they allege they speak for. Even if we were accessing the information ourselves, we would have no way of assessing whether or not there was anything “clean” about it.
Kyra, I really enjoyed your epistemological rant on the other thread.
Abraham aside, the logic that you use to confirm that people attract situations into their life is the same logic that a person who believes in a judgmental God uses to confirm that people are punished/rewarded in this life. You see a person you know who is happy and gets things they want and you say, "That's the Law of Attraction at work!" You see someone who's unhealthy and complaining and say, "That's the Law of Attraction at work!" You hear about a kid who is abducted on the news and you have to assume that that kid attracted that (even if that isn't actually the case). You count things that confirm your belief and don't count the things that don't because there's always an excuse for things that don't match the belief (namely, "Well, that person must have had resistance; otherwise, they wouldn't have attracted that").
The same happens in your own life. You say, “I attracted that!” whether it’s good or bad, and you always have some reason that you can use to explain what caused you to attract whatever it is. Similarly, a person who believes in a punishing/rewarding God sees someone do something good and get something good and they say, "Hey, that's God giving you what you deserve." They see someone end up in jail for committing a crime, and they say, "That's God giving them what they deserve." They see a city wiped out by a hurricane, and they have to assume (erroneously) that all those people were being punished by God….
Well said. I agree completely that we cannot use our experience to validate a belief structure. As you pointed out so well, our beliefs validate our experience. But we have to have some way to make sense of the world. Most people rely on the beliefs of their parents or other childhood authority figures. Science is often an excellent method, but it can’t help us much with Abraham and other non-physical events. Science isn’t much help with lots of decision—whether or not to have a baby, or even go on a second date—even which plumber can we can trust.
The best path I’ve found is to do my own research, or to find others (like you) who have done research. My own research has led me to believe that there is consciousness beyond physical form, that some of this consciousness is extremely wise and intelligent, and that I and others have access to this. I can give you a testimonial, but as you rightly point out, these are not determinative.
For me, that all consciousness in the universe has the ability to create, just makes a lot of sense. It is the coolest, most sophisticated version of reality that I have ever come across. That the mechanism is the Law of Attraction also makes sense. So, when I say a channel is “clean” to me, what I mean is that the message is in alignment with my beliefs in this area—specifically that we each create our reality and how we can do that more consciously. The main questions I implicitly apply are: Is it empowering? Does it promote love rather than fear? Is it helpful to me or the recipient? Is it presented in term that indicate to me the channeler is injecting their own symbols, such as angels or aliens?
(cont.)
My beliefs system about all this was established way before I encountered Abraham, and A-H has always passed my tests with flying colors.
ReplyDeleteEveryone else obviously has to ask their own questions about what authority to trust, and even what plumber to pick. I am in no way holding my choices up as validating for you or anyone else.
I’m saying I find J&E not without human flaws and doing the best they can. I find A-H extremely wise and helpful. You have provided information that you believe discredits J&E and A-H. It is well-articulated and I think represents the doubts many people have about channeled material in general. So, I like chewing on these ideas with you.
I believe we have already established that science has nothing meaningful to say about non-physical events. It can neither validate nor invalidate them. I have already given my views that A-H can be wrong about predicting earth changes and still provide a lot of helpful wisdom, and I’m looking forward to your (everyone’s) response to that.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness and knowledge.
<< Anon, we all have days when we want to go out and play, and it’s raining, and it seems like it’s never going to end. Then we distract ourselves, and before we know it, the sun is out. You know what you want now more than ever. You’ll get your emotional legs back and be off and running. >>
ReplyDelete...
<< I believe when we go to a physician and are healed, it is because we are in alignment with healing and they are the avenue that helps us manifest this. We appreciate them for their intervention.
You were not healed, and the avenue through which that non-healing manifested was with the help of J&E. And you do not appreciate them for their intervention. >>
John, can you please stop patronising me and other people in here. I find this intolerable. I hope kyra will intervense and delete such messages in the future! :-(
Clarity! I am SO sorry I confused which of you proffered the possible theory of Abraham's rise and demise! I'm still in periodic treatment and often experience brain fog. I know better than to rely on memory for things like that, but was too weary to wade back thru the posts to be sure.
ReplyDeleteAnd, John, I appreciate your more lenient judgment of my experience. That creates a 2-way street and it certainly helps as we all understand each other a bit more from more posts that provide additional dimension and context. However, we still can only glean glimpses of a few facets of each other's whole self through venues like this.
I want to give lots more in response to your explanation about how the power or lack of it in any "afternoon" with Abraham might only be expected to "hold" during that specific time--with me or anyone left to return to our default beliefs/vibration--but, again, I'm too weary. Just need to say that there was SO much more to my time w/Abraham that it was not that simple--otherwise, I would totally agree with you.
Hey again John,
ReplyDeleteIn 1993, Abraham admitted that they had strongly expected that realignment was going to occur (two different times), and then the energy subsided.
-snip-
Now, Abraham says that the confusion around ANBI was because people misunderstood it. They say that they were just discussing the continual realignment that the planet is always undergoing.
Kyra, if you have one of your amazing quotes here, I would appreciate it.
I’m assuming you mean the second part of that, since I gave a quote for the first one.
"And so we said, ‘Yes, we are in agreement that you are in a more emphatic than usual time of earth realignment. There will be more wind. There will be more wave. There will be more volcanic activity. There will be more earthquake activity.’ Not everywhere all at once, but around enough as your earth is unfolding that it will give you an opportunity, if you see yourself as powerless, in the sense that you cannot control the conditions. You've got no choice." - Alaskan Cruise 2007
This quote presents the changes as being underway. They are saying that they are just part of the natural realignment of earth, and that we just happened to be in a more “emphatic” period. It ignores the fact that there were events that were supposed to happen “weeks” and “months” from certain occurrences. Specific states were to be affected with specific disasters. It was not just them saying, there will be more earthquakes, wind, wave, and volcanic activity.
Here’s an example:
“Another area of greater destruction, caused by earthquake and volcanic activity, will begin near the northern border of the United States, coming through the state of Idaho, through the state of Utah, through the state of Arizona and into the state of New Mexico.” – ANBI (page 74).
Since these predictions, there has been an earthquake in Idaho. In 2003, there was one with a magnitude of 3.3 on the Idaho/Washington border. 4.0s are considered light. 3.0s are considered minor. A 3.3 earthquake would hardly have been able to reach into Arizona, let alone New Mexico. It’s absurd to think Abraham would have considered this an area of “greater destruction.”
Thanks for your summation, Kyra. I have wished for a more in-depth explanation from A-H regarding this earth-shattering prediction that didn’t manifest for us (thankfully). My take on it is that the train was heading toward major earth changes—many people felt this—and that, as A-H said, the energy dissipated or shifted.
Notice in the quote above that Abraham is not saying that the energy dissipated, but that they are happening. But, if it was how you see it, they were still wrong about the changes. They said they strongly expected it in 1988, and then again in 1990, with both times, that energy subsiding.
(continued…)
Maybe there was a caveat that didn’t get into the books, along the lines of, “This is where things are headed but there are always different possible outcomes. The train can switch tracks.
ReplyDeleteYou can’t make that happen on your level, but things can still change.” However, the message came across as absolute: “We’re Abraham, we know, and this is going to happen.”
If there is a caveat, it was not in either the book or the Joyous Survival tapes. Again, this just seems like an easy way to let them off the hook. And again, you can see in the above quote that they are not suggesting that these events are not happening.
…the message being wrong about a prediction that involves so many people does not take away from their knowledge of the Law of Attraction and how it affects our lives. If I were going to them for predictions, I would never go back. But that is not what appeals to me about their teachings.
I just don’t think we should disregard the elements of their teachings that we can actually assess. The predictions are something that we can assess. We can’t assess the validity of what they say about nonphysical. We can’t see if that’s authentic. So, when we find something that is erroneous in their work, it does not only speak to that particular error, but the potential for major distortions in those things that we have no way of assessing for ourselves (I mean this for a person who is looking at the teachings as if they are actually channeled).
If my plumber predicts that the sewage system in Columbus is going to go down, and nothing happens, that doesn’t mean I can’t trust him to know how to unclog my sink.
A plumber can demonstrate his knowledge of a sink, and I can assess whether or not he knows what he’s talking about based on his ability to fix my sink. I can look at the sink, after the plumber has worked on it, and say, “It’s fixed!” or “It’s still not working!” And if it’s not working, then I would get a new plumber. We don’t have this luxury with Abraham. If something is not working for us, based on the ideology, Abraham and the materials are not at fault (unlike with the plumber). That said, I don’t think it’s accurate to compare the two. Abraham (metaphorically) would not be claiming to be a fixer of sinks, but to be teaching people how to fix their own sinks.
We cannot look out into “nonphysical” and say, “Ah yes, they are correct about this.” or “They are wrong about this.”
Any teacher that is teaching things that we have no way of assessing (or disconfirming) is useless. No teacher should ever be trusted…ever…just because they are saying something is so. If I was being taught a form of math from someone who said that he had no way of proving this particular math to me—and that didn’t line up with other maths—I would not attend that class. We can assess our teachers. If they are teaching things that we cannot prove, then we should rightly be just as skeptical of them as we should be Abraham.
There is really no way of evaluating how I don’t think I am reaching too far to say that there is a rather large difference between Abraham and a plumber.
Back to what I was saying about Abraham being a teacher of plumbers rather than a plumber (in this analogy), with a plumbing teacher, the sink exists and we can demonstrate that the sink works a particular way (and not other ways) through rigorous experimentation. If the teacher makes an error, I can show you where that error is and fix it. With Abraham, we cannot prove that the sink works as they say it does. We just have to take their word for it. So if they are incorrect, we have no way of correcting them. No teacher in that position should be trusted—just because of the potential for error.
(continued…)
Which brings us to a really big issue: How can we determine that Abraham, or our plumber, has the expertise (and honesty) to be worthy of our trust?
ReplyDeleteAgain, I don’t really think the plumber and Abraham analogy works. But I think people should be skeptical of their plumber until they have proven that they can fix the sink.
If I’ve lost you in my reworking of this, let me know.
Kyra, I really enjoyed your epistemological rant on the other thread.
Thank you.
But we have to have some way to make sense of the world. Most people rely on the beliefs of their parents or other childhood authority figures. Science is often an excellent method, but it can’t help us much with Abraham and other non-physical events.
It can’t help us there because we don’t even know if those things exist. We could equally say that science can’t help us with the tooth fairy or Hell.
Science isn’t much help with lots of decision—whether or not to have a baby, or even go on a second date—even which plumber can we can trust.
I think that intellect can serve us in these instances.
The best path I’ve found is to do my own research, or to find others (like you) who have done research.
I agree 100% on this.
My own research has led me to believe that there is consciousness beyond physical form, that some of this consciousness is extremely wise and intelligent, and that I and others have access to this. I can give you a testimonial, but as you rightly point out, these are not determinative.
I understand this, and as I’ve said, Clarity shares this sentiment, but even if those things are so, it does not immediately validate Abraham or any other person purporting to channel. There will be frauds, as there have been those in the past who have admitted to their own fraudulence in mediumship.
(continued…)
For me, that all consciousness in the universe has the ability to create, just makes a lot of sense. It is the coolest, most sophisticated version of reality that I have ever come across. That the mechanism is the Law of Attraction also makes sense. So, when I say a channel is “clean” to me, what I mean is that the message is in alignment with my beliefs in this area—specifically that we each create our reality and how we can do that more consciously.
ReplyDeleteThat’s fine if you choose to read something because you agree with it, or it is in alignment with how you see the universe. My only point was that your agreement with something doesn’t immediately validate the authenticity of its origins. But I can tell people stories that make them feel better. It doesn’t mean there is anything authentic about them.
The main questions I implicitly apply are: Is it empowering? Does it promote love rather than fear? Is it helpful to me or the recipient? Is it presented in term that indicate to me the channeler is injecting their own symbols, such as angels or aliens?
I would call Abraham’s ideas about Source and nonphysical their own symbols. If Esther was actually channeling (which as you know, I don’t believe), she could very well be translating that nonphysical is this way because of her exposure to the Seth materials—not because it is actually so. In theory, Esther’s translation is filled with her symbols, which are not necessarily anymore accurate about nonphysical than a person who was channeling information about demons.
My beliefs system about all this was established way before I encountered Abraham, and A-H has always passed my tests with flying colors.
Again, I understand that. I’m just saying that just because someone says things that you agree with, doesn’t mean there is any authenticity there.
Everyone else obviously has to ask their own questions about what authority to trust, and even what plumber to pick. I am in no way holding my choices up as validating for you or anyone else.
I get that, and trust me, I in no way see that as what you are doing.
I’m saying I find J&E not without human flaws and doing the best they can. I find A-H extremely wise and helpful. You have provided information that you believe discredits J&E and A-H. It is well-articulated and I think represents the doubts many people have about channeled material in general. So, I like chewing on these ideas with you.
Lol. I do my best to articulate it, and I’m enjoying this too.
(continued…)
I believe we have already established that science has nothing meaningful to say about non-physical events. It can neither validate nor invalidate them.
ReplyDeleteI think you know my opinion about this by now.
I have already given my views that A-H can be wrong about predicting earth changes and still provide a lot of helpful wisdom, and I’m looking forward to your (everyone’s) response to that.
My only problem is that people can excuse Abraham for being wrong about anything. They can excuse any error and contradiction and inconsistency. If Esther walked into an audience and shot someone, an Aber could just say, “Oh, well that person was just in alignment with that. I wonder why they attracted that.” If Esther came forward and admitted to fraud, people could say, “She was just tired of the spotlight and making up an excuse to get out. Abraham is still real.” People can excuse anything that doesn’t line up, but they could equally do that for any charlatan or fraud.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness and knowledge.
And I appreciate yours. I think you add a perspective about all this that a lot of people resonate with, and I think that it actually gives people a better idea of our separate perspectives as we discuss like this.
"John, can you please stop patronising me and other people in here. I find this intolerable. I hope kyra will intervense and delete such messages in the future! :-("
ReplyDeleteHey Anon with legs,
I think that John's conversation about your (and other people's) situation offers outsiders a valuable insight about the kind of mentality that is to be expected from people who buy into a belief system like this.
That said, I am sure that John did not mean anything inappropriate, but was just trying to express his opinion. I think that now that he knows you are not so interested in hearing his take on it, he will be less inclined to discuss it.
kyra said,
ReplyDelete<< I think that John's conversation about your (and other people's) situation offers outsiders a valuable insight about the kind of mentality that is to be expected from people who buy into a belief system like this. >>
Yes, exactly. And I am not buying into it any longer, and do not want to be 'counseled' by someone who does. Just as I do not listen to Jehovah's Witnesses trying to sell me their belief system in the street.
<< That said, I am sure that John did not mean anything inappropriate, but was just trying to express his opinion. I think that now that he knows you are not so interested in hearing his take on it, he will be less inclined to discuss it. >>
I definitely hope so!
Just to be clear! I am NOT "Anon with legs" and have no idea where that post came from and what specifically the writer is referring to.
ReplyDeleteI am and will remain through this thread, Anon 8!
"John, can you please stop patronising me and other people in here. I find this intolerable. I hope kyra will intervense and delete such messages in the future! :-("
ReplyDeleteAnon with legs, as Kyra noted, my intent is not to patronize anyone. Having alerted me to your feelings, I’ll be more careful in any responses to you. However, if you are not comfortable with my responses to others, the best thing is probably just not to read them.
And, John, I appreciate your more lenient judgment of my experience. That creates a 2-way street and it certainly helps as we all understand each other a bit more from more posts that provide additional dimension and context. However, we still can only glean glimpses of a few facets of each other's whole self through venues like this.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8, if you felt in any way judged by me, then I apologize. That was not my intent at all. I have enough things I’m working on myself that I don’t feel in any position to judge anyone else—nor do I even want to. I completely agree with you that we only have glimpses of what is going on with each other on a forum like this.
I want to give lots more in response to your explanation about how the power or lack of it in any "afternoon" with Abraham might only be expected to "hold" during that specific time--with me or anyone left to return to our default beliefs/vibration--but, again, I'm too weary. Just need to say that there was SO much more to my time w/Abraham that it was not that simple--otherwise, I would totally agree with you.
Anything you want to add would be much appreciated.
Well...I'm quite confused about who "Anon with legs" is and why they have suddenly jumped in seeming to be representing or referring to me or my position.
ReplyDelete[Am I missing posts? Or did they just jump in?]
Not that it's important, but it does bother me that "Anon with legs'" several posts seem to have confused things with John and possibly Kyra as being me suddenly taking new offense.
No need to belabor this distraction, just please, John & Kyra, keep *my* posts separated from these new ones. ? ? ?
Anon 8,
ReplyDeleteI am finding myself equally confused.
Anon with legs,
Sorry, I think we're having some trouble sorting through which anonymous is which.
Either Anon with legs is completely foreign to posting, or decided to crusade for you or is here to confuse things and create discord. i would vote for the latter but that's just Kyra's bad influence on me :)
ReplyDeleteI actually didn't pay anon with legs much mind bc it felt like it was some wild hair inserted into the mix. The very suggestion of censoring a civil exchange smacks of the Abe forum mindset so who knows what winds blow~
The attempts to derail Dave's blogs are of the same limited mind capacity.
And if anyone post as me and starts ranting, or John and starts ranting, we all know what is going on eh? Kyra rants but ha, it's her blog...just kidding :)
Me: However, the message came across as absolute: “We’re Abraham, we know, and this is going to happen.”
ReplyDeleteIf there is a caveat, it was not in either the book or the Joyous Survival tapes. Again, this just seems like an easy way to let them off the hook.
The intent of my final statement above was to not let them off the hook. From the way it was presented, A-H were speaking ex cathedra, and I agree, what happened was not what they predicted.
I just don’t think we should disregard the elements of their teachings that we can actually assess. The predictions are something that we can assess.
This is an excellent point, and I agree. We may part ways with the following statement, but I see A-H helping people more effectively than any other therapist I’ve known. This is the way I practically asses the application of their teachings.
A plumber can demonstrate his knowledge of a sink, and I can assess whether or not he knows what he’s talking about based on his ability to fix my sink. I can look at the sink, after the plumber has worked on it, and say, “It’s fixed!” or “It’s still not working!” And if it’s not working, then I would get a new plumber. We don’t have this luxury with Abraham.
Watching A-H address a person in the hotseat, I can see if they are successful in unclogging the person’s beliefs. And, wow, are they good at it. It’s one thing for a fake channeler to preach platitudes, and most of us could probably spout the basic Abraham teachings by heart. But to effectively help someone apply them in difficult situations, over and over without fail, is way beyond Esther’s capability, or at least was in the early years. (I don’t know Esther well enough personally to know how good a therapist she would be. Knowing the material and helping others apply it effectively are two different skills.)
I know that this may not be the view of many on this forum, but the vast majority of people are satisfied with the insights they get on the hotseat, and even after having time to reflect on them and apply them to their situations, they remain satisfied. The rate of satisfaction is significantly higher than among even the best psychotherapists I have known.
Some might say that Abraham is held in high esteem, and many would blame themselves rather than Abraham. This is the same with doctors.
(continued….)
If something is not working for us, based on the ideology, Abraham and the materials are not at fault (unlike with the plumber).
ReplyDeleteI think most teachings take the approach that if they don’t work it’s because of the student. Basically, I see neither the teachings nor the person at fault. I’ve tried many approaches and moved on. I don’t like teachings that try to use “God’s Word” to control people, but others seem comfortable there. These may be the best stepping-stones for them to get where they want to go. All I know for sure is, they aren’t for me.
(Kyra, your description of how intensely you applied the processes is really impressive. When I read The Nature of Personal Reality, I would study half page a day and meditate on it. I took pages and pages of notes. I was certain when I finished I would be able to create all my wishes. Boy, was I disappointed—and upset.)
Abraham (metaphorically) would not be claiming to be a fixer of sinks, but to be teaching people how to fix their own sinks.
I can go with that analogy too.
Any teacher that is teaching things that we have no way of assessing (or disconfirming) is useless. No teacher should ever be trusted…ever…just because they are saying something is so.
I have no disagreement with this. However, I’m constantly applying the principles and having my one biased observer evaluate them. As I’ve said, I can only compare my biased observations to ones I’ve made using other approaches.
With Abraham, we cannot prove that the sink works as they say it does. We just have to take their word for it.
I can tell when I’m getting unclogged. If I’m stuck, I don’t just blindly stick with Abraham’s methods. If my headache doesn’t go away, I take a pill. In the past, if a philosophical/religious approach didn’t fit well with me, I would move on. After much research, I haven’t found any better path for me.
Me: Science is often an excellent method, but it can’t help us much with Abraham and other non-physical events.
It can’t help us there because we don’t even know if those things exist. We could equally say that science can’t help us with the tooth fairy or Hell.
There you go again, attacking the tooth fairy. Is nothing sacred?
I would call Abraham’s ideas about Source and nonphysical their own symbols. If Esther was actually channeling (which as you know, I don’t believe), she could very well be translating that nonphysical is this way because of her exposure to the Seth materials—not because it is actually so. In theory, Esther’s translation is filled with her symbols, which are not necessarily anymore accurate about nonphysical than a person who was channeling information about demons.
While I believe they are more accurate, I have to agree with you.
If Esther walked into an audience and shot someone, an Aber could just say, “Oh, well that person was just in alignment with that. I wonder why they attracted that.”
You can use me as an example of “the kind of mentality that is to be expected from people who buy into a belief system like this.” That is what I would say, even (especially) if I was the one shot. (In fact, something similar happened to one of the characters in my second novel, and that is what they said.)
Again, it is a pleasure discussing these ideas with you.
(I don’t know Esther well enough personally to know how good a therapist she would be. Knowing the material and helping others apply it effectively are two different skills.)
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of frauds that have counseled people, who have great testimonies of their abilities from their followers. There are people who would claim that self-admitted frauds were better healers than doctors. I have volumes of literature from people swearing the effectiveness of their particular method and teacher. So, I’m not very impressed by this. I think it speaks more to the power of the minds of those who believe than it does toward anything Esther did. Knowing what I know about the placebo effect, I cannot deny that it is possible for people to feel some benefit from these teachings. I know that people can even feel relief of physical pain just by believing that it is possible with these teachings. At the same time, a sugar pill could produce the same results.
Also, I think there is big difference between the elation a person feels at the hotseat, and then what they actually are able to practice in their life. I’ve personally seemed to have been immensely helped at the hotseat, only later to be like, “Wait a minute. That was not helpful at all.”
I can tell when I’m getting unclogged.
Just because something is effective at accomplishing a result, doesn’t mean that it is responsible for the improvement. Someone can feel tremendous benefit from aroma therapy, but aroma therapy isn’t the mechanism that caused the improvement. It was the person’s belief in the system. That’s why I’m saying that we can’t really give credit to these teachings when there are plenty of other ones that people are feeling equal—if not much, much better—results from. It could very well just be the result of the placebo effect.
If I’m stuck, I don’t just blindly stick with Abraham’s methods. If my headache doesn’t go away, I take a pill. In the past, if a philosophical/religious approach didn’t fit well with me, I would move on. After much research, I haven’t found any better path for me.
I’m glad that you have applied this to your life in a more rational manner than most of the Abers I have known.
There you go again, attacking the tooth fairy. Is nothing sacred?
I hate that b**ch!
Again, it is a pleasure discussing these ideas with you.
And me with you also. I understand where you are coming from, and it's nice to have a dialogue where I can gain some clarity about your perspective about all this. As I’ve summarized above, I do not deny that a person can feel benefited by these teachings—I just don’t think that speaks to the validity of them. I also don’t think it can make up for the teachings’ shortcomings.
Thank you everyone for a very civil discussion.
ReplyDeleteI am pleased that this has happened (not to Jerry personally) but to make people question things they might have blindly accepted before.
I believe that we create our reality, but I don't believe it is as simple as Abraham depicts: Good thoughts equal good manifestations and bad thoughts equal bad manifestations.
I feel that Abraham is a stepping stone -- getting people used to realizing that how they respond to situations is completely within their control. And also beliefs are just that beliefs and they can be changed.
However their simplistic explanation of how we create reality is to me, very one dimensional. I also believe that our soul/spirit/inner knowing (or whatever you want to term your Higher Self) is in charge and not the mind based human self.
Your Higher Self or inner knowing is the really the only thing that can guide you.
And no it is not provable by science or anything else.
Oh, oh! I am sorry for having created confusion!
ReplyDeleteAnon 8 wrote:
Well...I'm quite confused about who "Anon with legs" is and why they have suddenly jumped in seeming to be representing or referring to me or my position.
[Am I missing posts? Or did they just jump in?]
Not that it's important, but it does bother me that "Anon with legs'" several posts seem to have confused things with John and possibly Kyra as being me suddenly taking new offense.
No need to belabor this distraction, just please, John & Kyra, keep *my* posts separated from these new ones. ? ? ?
Anon 8, I am sorry for having used John's reply to YOUR post. I should have referred only to John's reply to MY OWN post further up the page.
I apologise to all. Please believe me, I am not here to create discord or go on a crusade for someone or something like that. I am really a little unexperienced with posting comments to blogs like this.
I just wanted John to know that I am not here to get 'counseling' from him. I see that John has understood what I meant; I am satisfied with this. My mistake was that overreacted a little because I am so fed up with being 'advised' by people who believe in the Abraham philosophy.
I will remain silent now because I have nothing more to add to this discussion; but please know that I find this exchange very interesting and enlightening and hopefully beneficial for everyone.
- Anon.w.legs -
Hi Kyra,
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of frauds that have counseled people, who have great testimonies of their abilities from their followers. There are people who would claim that self-admitted frauds were better healers than doctors
I used to go to conferences where researchers would present new psychiatric drugs. They would have a drug for depression, for example. It would cost $500 a month. The side effects would be that your hair would fall out, you would gain 50# and you would lose your sex drive. However, it was found to be 24% effective. In contrast, the control group had a success rate of 17%. I’m exaggerating, or course, but not much. I always wondered, if the same energy would be put into improving the natural healing found in the control group, could they get it to the same level as the pill? Of course drug companies don’t pay researchers to study this. (The researchers used to hate the placebo effect, because it was so hard for them to beat it.)
There are two non-pharmacological processes that affect healing, the natural course of a disease and the placebo. The placebo effect is basically “mind over matter,” as Clarity would say. In fact the whole process of getting an illness and the body coming back into balance is mind over matter from the perspective of the Law of Attraction.
If I am ill, I would much rather be healed by a placebo than anything else. Even if the people paid the self-admitted frauds, they probably didn’t pay as much as we do for medical treatment, and they didn’t have the side-effects of most modern medicines. You may want to run someone who only heals using the placebo effect out of town. I want to give them a medal. The healing Jesus is reported to have done is all placebo effect.
Also, I think there is big difference between the elation a person feels at the hotseat, and then what they actually are able to practice in their life. I’ve personally seemed to have been immensely helped at the hotseat, only later to be like, “Wait a minute. That was not helpful at all.”
If most people felt like that, I don’t think they would be enthusiastically recommending A-H (as you don’t). If a product doesn’t work for people, that comes out. The only people whom I have found to be as enthusiastic as Abers are Apple fans.
Me: I can tell when I’m getting unclogged.
Just because something is effective at accomplishing a result, doesn’t mean that it is responsible for the improvement. Someone can feel tremendous benefit from aroma therapy, but aroma therapy isn’t the mechanism that caused the improvement. It was the person’s belief in the system.
I agree. However, when I use conscious thought-changing techniques to get to a better emotional place and have greater clarity about how to respond to a problem, I know what caused the change. What you stated is correct for people who use mechanical or pharmacological intermediaries.
(continued…)
That’s why I’m saying that we can’t really give credit to these teachings when there are plenty of other ones that people are feeling equal—if not much, much better—results from. It could very well just be the result of the placebo effect.
ReplyDeleteAs I indicated above, if someone can heal just using the placebo effect, they are at the top of the heap as far as I’m concerned.
When doing psychotherapy, I would have to balance between how much do I emphasize my credentials in helping the person feel that a powerful process is being applied to their problems vs. how much do I focus on helping the person experience their own power. The healers, even Jesus, emphasized the former. A placebo isn’t just a sugar pill. It is a pill or process given by a source the patient believes has the power to heal them. It is the generating of that belief and the resulting shift in thinking that causes the healing.
A-H, however, is mostly at the opposite pole. It is all your own power. I have never heard A-H claim that they have healed anyone. What they have said is that one can use the Law of Attraction to be, do or have anything. That’s like saying you can use the stock market to make a million dollars a day (which some people do). They have also provided tools and instructions on how to go about doing this. There are many people who provide tools and instructions on how to do well in the market. However, it is how often and how well someone uses those tools that makes all the difference.
In the market you can see how well you’re doing. However, you can also use excuses (like the overall economy) when you are not doing well. (Unless you believe in the Law of Attraction, like me, where there are no excuses). Likewise with the A-H teachings. You can use your biased observations and decide if this is working for you. If not, you can go somewhere else.
The validity I have found for myself in the A-H material is how it works for me and how I have observed it working for others in the seminars. While I may have an overly rosy view of the success rate (e.g., some, like you, don’t always feel satisfied after leaving the hotseat, or I may not notice my failures as much), I’m applying the same type of bias to all the methods I’ve tried.
Hey again John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteI could make up a bogus doctrine, and countless of people could believe that my doctrine helped them release their illness (when really, like a placebo, it was just their belief that my materials helped them). This wouldn’t be a difficult thing to do because, just like with a sugar pill, it only has to do with their belief in my doctrine. Just because I can do this does not mean that the metaphysical claims that I could make about nonphysical or Source or anything else are true.
Also, I can claim all I want to that my ideas can effectively cure Parkinson’s or AIDs—doesn’t mean they will. And yes, I think it is a gross lie to tell people otherwise, and I would want to chase anyone who said such out of town—unless they are willing to provide evidence that they can indeed do these things. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
The placebo effect has limits. It has not been shown to do the sorts of things that gurus and Abrahams say their materials can help you achieve (like regrowing amputated limbs). If they could do these things, that would be impressive, but there’s no proof that they can.
If you are suggesting that we praise any charlatan that is able to affect a result because of the placebo effect, I am violently opposed to this. I think that is just as bad as selling medicines that have been shown to have no more benefit than a placebo. It is quackery at its worst.
I have been following your discussion about Abe and the LOA.
ReplyDeleteMy problem with the whole LOA thing is something that John just mentioned. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that the recession is just an "excuse" for not succeeding according to those who buy into the LOA. That couldn't be further from the truth. Yes I know people believe that but it's not reality. I assume you mean that those that have been affected by it have "created" that for themselves? So bad decisions by a few that had a trickle down affect onto thousands of others is really the fault of those that have lost their jobs, income, livelihood? The craziest part of this is that when the whole LOA was at its peak is when the economy and people started hurting the worst. And not just those that didn't believe in the LOA. I know plenty of people who are die hard believers who have lost almost everything, and I know from direct experience they dedicated at least a decade of their lives to understanding it. The sad part is that they still blame themselves for things that were out of their control. Mind you, these are people who were very successful and educated. That is the worst casualty of believing in something that isn't real like the LOA. They rationalize everything that happens to them down to a basic law. Either I did or didn't focus or use the techniques correctly. Therefore the result or situation I am is a direct reflection of that and is all my fault. Even a random act of kindness towards them by a stranger is something they get elated by, and instead of seeing it as a stranger seeing a need in them and acting accordingly out of the goodness of their heart. They go all LOA on the person and say. "I CREATED THIS!" And the cycle of delusion begins all over again.
It's those random good hits that keep people addicted to the LOA and the Hick's teachings. Vegas is the same way and built upon that principle. Give people the random good hits (wins that = feeling good) and they will keep coming back for more and giving you their money. The longer you travel that path the stronger the ADDICTION becomes and the bigger the "random hit" needs to become. People who buy into the LOA are exactly the same way and overlook the banal non-exciting stuff that may not feel good or even just be boring by comparison...
They even confuse the non-exciting stuff for believing a teaching isn't right for them or a teaching not being their "truth" because the excitement or that "aha" moment they crave so dearly didn't get triggered in them. Conversely it is always the shift changes from non-feeling to feeling states, random "good" events, the random deep connection with a stranger,a kind word, a pith phrase where there hearts go aflutter, etc, that triggers a feel good response in the person and they claim they "created" that moment. Same thing when things get really bad and a feeling of regret, remorse, loss, etc. gets triggered, it is a "feeling" state and therefore according to the LOA you created it. No, no, no, they didn't create that moment, the body is simply responding to an outside stimuli. That is a normal part of life that we ALL experience. What the LOA does is create a gauntlet of beliefs for us to travel through and dictates that those experiences, those Highs and Lows are something you created, making you special, therefore it is just another step on the ladder or another roadblock to achieving the ultimate state.
ReplyDeleteIn reality, all that does is keep the person chained within the mental and emotional prison, oops I mean gauntlet that the LOA demands and creates for those who choose to enter. Once you step out of that gauntlet you start to see that sometimes shit just happens. That people who don't buy into or even care about the LOA also have an amazing ability to find love, create success, are loving, caring, good people. You start to see life in a deeper way. The natural beauty and touching experiences of life is not something you created for yourself, it is something that we all get to experience together.
So in the end as far as the Hick's are concerned. No matter how anyone tries to intellectually or logically frame it, it comes down to this (Which ironically is very illogical). Do you choose to believe a non-physical entity (which you have no proof of existing beyond someone telling you that it does) knows more than you and is wiser than you? I don't and can't because how is that entity going to possibly know all the little intricacies of my personality, my wants, desires, and silent wishes I choose not to share with anyone else? It doesn't and can't because it is a fabrication.
Kyra,
ReplyDeleteI really like your blog and have shared it with those that still want to believe in the Hick's and their teachings despite a long string of events that have shown them that maybe what they bought into isn't the truth. They have been experiencing cognitive dissonance and it is good for them to see that they are not alone.
Despite them asking my thoughts on the matter I can only share so much cause to them, I "communicate" like a man. So they need a gentler touch. : )
Hi Kyra,
ReplyDeleteI’ve rearranged what you said a bit.
If you are suggesting that we praise any charlatan that is able to affect a result because of the placebo effect, I am violently opposed to this. I think that is just as bad as selling medicines that have been shown to have no more benefit than a placebo. It is quackery at its worst.
I don’t think we’re as far apart on this as it may seem. I’m not defending charlatans. In my view, someone who would use a negative, dishonest approach is going to have the equivalent come back to them. I think we are just focusing on different parts of the elephant. I’m picturing well-meaning people who have a gift but don’t fit the medical model. I’m not endorsing the snake-oil salesman who skips town in the middle of the night.
We could spend some time clarifying this, but I think the significant point is that A-H doesn’t claim to heal people. (At least I’ve never heard them claim that. Anon 8 may have something more to say on this.)
I could make up a bogus doctrine, and countless of people could believe that my doctrine helped them release their illness…. Just because I can do this does not mean that the metaphysical claims that I could make about nonphysical or Source or anything else are true.
I agree.
Also, I can claim all I want to that my ideas can effectively cure Parkinson’s or AIDs—doesn’t mean they will. And yes, I think it is a gross lie to tell people otherwise, and I would want to chase anyone who said such out of town—unless they are willing to provide evidence that they can indeed do these things. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
It may not be unreasonable, but it’s unconstitutional—and for a very good reason. We don’t want anyone to decide for us what ideas we’re allowed to hear. (If we banned people who tell lies, most of our politicians would be gone.) I think what you are doing here, with this forum is a perfect response.
T.Beast (and others) have pointed out, there are people who have diligently applied these principles and now blame themselves because they didn’t succeed. Insofar as understanding the Law of Attraction leads to self-empowerment, I’m all for it. Insofar as it leads to self-blame, I’m not. Here is an excerpt from my second novel, John and Jeanie Fly: Our world and the Law of Attraction, that explains in a more nuanced way what I believe about the Law of Attraction and blame:
ReplyDelete“You and I—nearly everyone—have been raised with the idea of two roles: the innocent victim and the guilty perpetrator. Victims are to be pitied and perpetrators are to be punished. If people get sick or something awful happens, and they aren’t innocent victims, watch out—they’re guilty and deserve it. The less innocent, the less con¬cern for them. Most people are only willing to help those they feel sorry for.”
“Isn’t that the logical outcome of what you’re saying, though? If we create everything that happens to us with our expectations, then we’re responsible.”
“Being responsible, having the ability to respond, is a powerful position. The problem is, in our culture the responsible party has to pay. Go to any court of law. When someone gets hurt, the responsi¬ble party either pays money or goes to jail, or both. This is how we think of it. So if people get cancer or are taken into a gas chamber, if they aren’t innocent victims, then somehow they deserved it. No one deserves that kind of pain.”
“But you’re saying the people in the Holocaust could have stopped what happened to them if they had thought differently?”
“That’s true. There’s the theory, though, and there’s the practice. Say you’re driving down the road. A passenger in your car pulls on your steering wheel. The car runs off the road and people get hurt. Whose fault is it?”
“The one who pulled the steering wheel.”
“It’s your car. You’re the driver. You didn’t have to let him con¬trol the wheel.”
Stuart set his beer down, a smile of recognition on his face. “You’re saying the people in the Holocaust let other people guide their thoughts.”
“Not only let, they—we—feel obligated to. We see others as authorities over us all the time—parents, politicians, even statistics. ‘Don’t eat this; it’ll increase your chances of getting a heart attack.’ Or, ‘If you don’t wear your seatbelt, you’re more likely to get hurt.’ You’ve heard the messages. They’re all based on what other people have done, but we treat them as if they apply to us. Millions drove their whole lives without ever wearing a seatbelt and were just fine. But well-meaning people try to focus everyone on the relatively few who participate in accidents.
“If we hear about a house in our neighborhood getting robbed, we start worrying about being robbed ourselves. We’re constantly observing things and taking them in as our truth. Plus, we have thousands of beliefs we’ve taken in since childhood. As we focus on these things, the thoughts we have are almost automatic. We con¬stantly let decisions other people make pull at our steering wheel.”
Stuart waved his hand, “It’s one thing to feel like you have to put on your seatbelt or eat less red meat. That’s a long way from being caught in a holocaust.”
“Our response to authority today is nothing compared to the fear of authority in Europe at that time. But, whether it’s because of intense fear or simply habit, most of us let external authorities hijack our thoughts. I told you what happened to us in the underground base. When I was being interrogated, I was essentially hypnotized by their authority, and we’d only been on the base a few days. I was able to pull out of it, but when something unwanted happens, most people feel like victims. And in a sense we are, but not of the virus or robber, or even the Nazi storm trooper. We’re the victims of the people and events we’ve allowed to guide our thoughts.”
ReplyDelete“Weren’t the Nazis the authorities who were doing the guiding at that time?”
“Yes, to a large extent they were. They were the ones whipping up people’s fears. You can definitely blame them.” I took a sip of beer. “But thinking of the people who suffered and died in the Holocaust as victims doesn’t help them and only hurts us. The mantra of the Jews is, ‘Never again.’ The person who has cancer doesn’t want to have a recurrence. There is power in understanding that all of these experiences are the result of choices—that we have the power to choose different thoughts and have different outcomes.”
Stuart sat upright in his seat, with more of a military bearing. “The Jews are on guard. That is a choice.”
“Choosing what action to take to defend yourself makes little difference if it doesn’t change your expectations. The Jews are being attacked on a daily basis in the Middle East. They’re vividly picturing the Palestinians assaulting them—and they do.”
Stuart shook his head. He wasn’t ready to agree with me, and he didn’t like to think of all those people getting hurt. He had been in a war. He knew what it was like.
“I know you want to see the larger picture,” I said, “and I appreciate your thoughtful questions. You have to decide for yourself what to believe. I certainly don’t want to be another authority replacing one you have now.” Smiling, “However, I would probably be nicer.” Stuart gave me a half smile back. I added, “The only authority worth having is your own inner guidance.”
Angela said: "I believe that we create our reality, but I don't believe it is as simple as Abraham depicts: Good thoughts equal good manifestations and bad thoughts equal bad manifestations.
ReplyDeleteI feel that Abraham is a stepping stone -- getting people used to realizing that how they respond to situations is completely within their control. And also beliefs are just that beliefs and they can be changed.
However their simplistic explanation of how we create reality is to me, very one dimensional. I also believe that our soul/spirit/inner knowing (or whatever you want to term your Higher Self) is in charge and not the mind based human self."
PERFECTLY and succinctly said, Anglea. Contrary to what may appear from my posts, (altho I alluded to this at one point) I fully agree w/you. My position in this thread has been focused on the fraudulent part of "Abe/Esther."
I actually became immersed in Abraham because I allow for communication (now & then) from non-physical, and I thought they would continue evolving their "teachings" over time to provide more and more information on the creative relationship/cooperation between our soul/spirit/Higher Self and our human consciousness. But that was not the case, of course.
It is obvious there is much more creating our experience than our conscious thoughts. And it seems added to the mix are the contents and beliefs held in our unconscious/subconscious.
I don't intend to open this facet for discussion or comment here--as the subject is A-H fraud, just wanted to 2nd Angela's well-stated thoughts.
T. Beast: Another perfectly stated summary--this on the LOA. I don't believe a "case" against it's foolishness could ever be better stated in so few and choice words.
Hey T Beast,
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by. You echo a lot of what I feel about LOA and the Abraham materials. I appreciate how well you articulated your thoughts.
Thank you very much.
T. Beast rocks my socks off.
ReplyDelete(As does Kyra.)
Hey again John,
ReplyDeleteI’m not endorsing the snake-oil salesman who skips town in the middle of the night.
I really don’t see any difference between someone like that and the Hickses.
We could spend some time clarifying this, but I think the significant point is that A-H doesn’t claim to heal people. (At least I’ve never heard them claim that. Anon 8 may have something more to say on this.)
I never said they did. However, their materials are offering processes that claim to be able to help you regain perfect health. And as you can see in the example I provided, it was an example like the Hickses. I was not acting as a healer in the example. I was just offering a doctrine.
It may not be unreasonable, but it’s unconstitutional—and for a very good reason. We don’t want anyone to decide for us what ideas we’re allowed to hear. (If we banned people who tell lies, most of our politicians would be gone.) I think what you are doing here, with this forum is a perfect response.
Fortunately, we do have Consumer Protection laws that protect consumers against people that sell products that make deceitful claims. If you think that’s unconstitutional, so be it. I don’t think the constitution was designed to protect frauds and charlatans. Period. There are plenty of things that people aren’t allowed to say. Slander and libel come to mind.
Hi Kyra,
ReplyDeleteJust so we’re on the same page:
Also, I can claim all I want to that my ideas….
Me: It may not be unreasonable, but it’s unconstitutional—and for a very good reason. We don’t want anyone to decide for us what ideas we’re allowed to hear.
Fortunately, we do have Consumer Protection laws that protect consumers against people that sell products that make deceitful claims. If you think that’s unconstitutional, so be it.
I thought we were talking about ideas.
I don’t think the constitution was designed to protect frauds and charlatans. Period. There are plenty of things that people aren’t allowed to say. Slander and libel come to mind.
I agree.
It may not be unreasonable, but it’s unconstitutional—and for a very good reason. We don’t want anyone to decide for us what ideas we’re allowed to hear.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, there are still laws against false advertising, slander, and libel. I don't like the idea of censorship, but I don't like the idea of people taking advantage of people either.
I thought we were talking about ideas.
I'm talking about people making deceptive claims at the expense of consumers.
T Beast, about those people who lost their jobs/income during the recession: I believe that our Soul Self is working to get us to wake up to who we really are. It might start with a nudge (feeling dissatisfied with where we work), but if we don’t listen, it becomes a shout – a lost job, lost income.
ReplyDeleteI totally disagree with your premise, in that I don’t believe there is an objective good and bad. I believe we are constantly choosing experiences in order for us to become who we truly are – and sometimes that takes losing a lot. No one knows why anyone else creates an experience for themselves. The problem comes when we judge an experience as good or bad (which is the ego mind’s way of trying to stay in control).
The limitations for me of A-H are the focus on thinking positive, staying positive in order to affect reality. Firstly, I don’t believe you can ignore your shadow/dark self and secondly I don’t believe that thought alone (like Anon 8 said) is creating our reality. It is such tiny ego based part of the entirety of who we are. I think acceptance about where we are is key (which A-H do also say), but I think the constant focus on feeling good and getting into the vortex can be detrimental: there is that constant monitoring of the correlation between how we feel and what we are creating. For some people that does really work, but for many others it has the opposite effect.
However that negative effect is also a good thing – because we are here to learn to trust our selves, and no one else; no religion, no channeled being, no outside authority .
Also you truly cannot make enough laws to control anything. If people want to give their power away, they are going to give their power away, until they learn to take their power back.
But no law is going to control that. If James Arthur Ray is jailed, then they'll simply give their power to their authoritative boss or husband.
Question regarding LOA:
ReplyDeleteI have always wondering how it is different from the magical thinking of childhood (Example: "Step on a crack, break your mama's back.")
Or from OCD style thinking "If I turn the light switch on and off a certain number of times, I will keep my family safe."
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me clarify my thinking around this topic.
Angela said...
ReplyDeleteAlso you truly cannot make enough laws to control anything. If people want to give their power away, they are going to give their power away, until they learn to take their power back.
~
Agreed. Maybe, hopefully, the bigger picture in all of this is ‘getting it’ being controlled by fear. Take for instance the money thing. Everyone is trying to figure out how to deal with it. The solution is as simple as each country says they abolish the Fed Reserve and print their own currency. Since money is fiat anyway, you print your own fiat instead of borrowing fiat from a cartel of thugs. The only power the cartel has is the power surrendered to them.
And that would go for the medical community too. If ppl would self empower then demands would be made to have treatments be the best with the least amount of harmful effects. The pharma industry would have to bow to consumer demand. But alas, ppl go into the medical system so freaked out they agree to treatments that are proven harmful and outdated with research proving that less invasive protocols are more effective.
This knowing can be applied to anything. Fear is a marvelous control mechanism. From an expanded perspective it all fits into place bc for us as a species to evolve we have to self empower and going beyond fear is key to that evolution.
Angela,
ReplyDeleteThis may come across harsher than what I am meaning but don't know any other way to say it. So charge that to my head and not to my heart.
If I am understanding you right,what you are saying is a contradiction. First you are saying that the "soul" is choosing for us to wake up to a higher purpose by putting us through experiences that it chooses. Then later you say that we are here to trust ourselves and not a non-physical entity outside of us. I can only assume that you are saying we are one with our soul but yet how can that be? Isn't the soul technically still separate from our mind, thoughts, and conscious reality if we are not physically aware of it? If it is making decisions without us knowing or even us not finding out the consequences of its decisions until its too late. Isn't that something outside of us doing that? So we are just puppets on a string? So which is it? Isn't that trusting something outside of us?
You can't have it both ways. That means you are choosing to believe in something (the soul) which obviously to you is a GOOD thing, it is benevolent,and has our best intentions in mind yet sometimes it puts us through "shitty things" so that we become a better person. But it is BAD to trust anything outside of ourselves like other non-physical entities that may have the exact same influence or intentions for us.
Why I bring that up is because in reality you do believe in an objective good and bad. It is just semantics for you. The difference being is that you apply it to a subjective belief on what goes on within us at a soul level. You also believe that everything is "ALL GOOD" in the end according to the soul. Which to me is just choosing to ignore what is really happening in front of us. Our bodies become aware of feelings that don't feel good, it doesn't have the luxury of contemplating that. The body just lets us know whats up, which means whatever is happening might just be bad so that we can make instant decisions to do something different or choose to indulge in that not so good feeling, it could be physical or emotional. I trust my body knows what it is feeling and going through short-term and long-term more than trying to predict what the "soul" may ultimately want for me. I know better at a conscious level what is right for me but that comes with believing what is happening right in front of you, and sometimes we as people have a hard time with that. I guess you can make the argument that the all knowing soul is the one that sends us those feelings but that would also mean the soul knows what is good or bad for us correct? Or does it not believe in the good/bad dichotomy either?
(cont)...
It is ok to play games of semantics in the mind of what the soul is, what good and bad really means etc. But to apply that to real life and act that when bad stuff happens to other people that is just the "souls" way of saying.... Hey you, wake up man, be happy god dammit. I the all knowing soul want you to be a rock star of awareness and you can't do that be staying in this job man, I am gonna have to "shake your tree" and make you go broke cause I have to get you to hit the road of enlightenment, blah, blah, blah (you can also add all the other platitudes and cliches that are heard so often regarding that).
ReplyDeleteThat kind of thinking goes to what I am saying of discounting the normal everyday stuff that doesn't give us those good or bad feelings or emotional hits. That discounts the part of life that is also very important and what most of us experience. I refuse to discount that because I am not an adrenaline junky who needs moments of "creating" to constantly happen in order to feel I am on the correct path.
I know that if I am at work, sometimes I feel inspired, sometimes I feel like shit. Doesn't mean that I have to change my job or leave it for something else to feel better or have it be for my ultimate growth or more in my alignment. I know that every moment of my life has meaning. If the soul can't accept that I feel that way and I enjoy what I am experiencing in that moment or that I have that kind of understanding... than I don't need it. The metaphorical soul of all knowing can jump off a cliff as far as I'm concerned (of course if I need it to survive... I take that last comment back). : ) So for you to say that all those people losing their jobs is for their own good is simply a fallacy and not based on any kind of truth beyond what someone told you or wrote in an article/book and you accepted it as truth. If there were enough jobs to go around so they all could land softly in a position more fitting for them you might have a point but that isn't the case.
I can't believe a soul would want someone to starve or their families hurting for their own "spiritual" good in the end. I don't buy it because that would inevitably shorten their time on earth and how can they possibly spiritually grow without being in a physical body? Makes absolutely no sense. I simply don't have the need to rationalize my unique and profound experiences in life away to simple and empty platitudes. Can't do it, to me it is too dis-empowering, and I see how that kind of thinking has the same affect on others.
Hi Kyra,
ReplyDeleteAlso, I can claim all I want to that my ideas can effectively cure Parkinson’s or AIDs—doesn’t mean they will. And yes, I think it is a gross lie to tell people otherwise, and I would want to chase anyone who said such out of town—unless they are willing to provide evidence that they can indeed do these things. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all for you to want to do that. And let me go a step further. Here’s an analogy:
Michael Jordan’s college coach starts a basketball school and claims, “Following my training can enable someone to play as well as Michael Jordan.”
That claim is totally true and verifiable, since someone following his training played exactly as well as MJ. But if it somehow led me to think that I could play as well after taking this training, I’d be sorely disappointed.
Now, the advantage I have in such a situation is that I know my size and how well I did in school basketball. It wouldn’t be hard for me to figure out that’s never going to happen. But in the metaphysical realm, we don’t have such easy markers.
Abraham-Hicks has said that we can heal any illness with our thoughts. They have also said it’s as easy to create a castle as a button. So a reasonable person may think, I have buttons. If I can create these, why not a castle. And, if that’s possible, why don’t I just cure my Parkinson’s.
Someone may seriously work on the techniques and throw everything they have into it, as I did with Seth and you described with your focus wheeling, etc. But they are unlikely to get fabulously rich or cure that major illness. Most don’t get nearly the results one might expect based on the claims above.
Meanwhile others are saying how wonderful these methods work.
Are they deluded? Am I just a failure? It must be me. After all, this is Unlimited Intelligence Esther is tapping into.
Then the person looks around and notices, well whatever these others are doing, I’m not seeing any documented evidence that major diseases are being turned around. And the ones who are rich look like they were already pretty rich when they came to the first seminar.
Plus, there are some who are so invested in the techniques that they feel it’s a failure to turn to physicians. After all, getting a diagnosis can make it worse, and if the doctor you get is hedging because they’re afraid of malpractice—so they tell you they’re not sure they can help you—well that will just throw you out of whatever Vortex you have left, and then you don’t know whom to trust.
Something doesn’t add up here. It’s hurting at least some people and doesn’t seem to be capable of helping others as much as the theory claims. After all, if we can really be, do, and have anything, all these happy people in the Abraham camp seem to be getting way less. There are a lot of people on those cruises in cabins with no windows—and they aren’t all newcomers.
[I’ll continue with this after you (and others) have had a chance to comment.]
Hey John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteI’m a little unsure about some of the points you’re making in your last comment, but I’m going to try and respond. If you feel I’m missing something important, feel free to clarify.
Michael Jordan’s college coach starts a basketball school and claims, “Following my training can enable someone to play as well as Michael Jordan.”
That claim is totally true and verifiable, since someone following his training played exactly as well as MJ. But if it somehow led me to think that I could play as well after taking this training, I’d be sorely disappointed.
I would say that this coach would just be taking advantage of the post hoc fallacy. As you pointed out, there are a lot of factors involved in how well a person plays basketball. It’s not necessarily true that it was that coach that enabled Michael Jordan to play like Michael Jordan to begin with. That’s like one of Einstein’s math teachers saying they enabled him to become a genius. That isn’t true. There are a lot more factors involved, so I find the statement, “Following my training can enable someone to play as well as Michael Jordan” very misleading. I think a more honest statement would be, “Following my training helped Michael Jordan become the awesome athlete he is.” Even then, we are left begging the question: how much was his coaching responsible for Michael Jordan's success?
In the context of the Abraham materials, this is like when people have some good thing happen to them (an amazing job or a gift of lots of money) and because they have been using the Abraham materials, they credit them as being the reason for the success. Like with the Michael Jordan example, this is the post hoc fallacy. They are saying that because the Abraham materials came before the success, they must be responsible for it. But statistically, there are bound to be people using the teachings who have some wonderful thing happen to them. That doesn’t mean the teachings are responsible for it.
Again, John, I’m not sure if this is addressing your point, so if you want to steer me in a different direction, feel free.
Someone may seriously work on the techniques and throw everything they have into it, as I did with Seth and you described with your focus wheeling, etc. But they are unlikely to get fabulously rich or cure that major illness. Most don’t get nearly the results one might expect based on the claims above.
I can agree here.
Meanwhile others are saying how wonderful these methods work.
As T Beast and myself have pointed out, there are a lot of reasons that people believe these things actually work, and subjective validation, post hoc fallacy, and the placebo effect go a long way in convincing people of the validity of a belief system like the one the Hickses have created.
Something doesn’t add up here. It’s hurting at least some people and doesn’t seem to be capable of helping others as much as the theory claims. After all, if we can really be, do, and have anything, all these happy people in the Abraham camp seem to be getting way less. There are a lot of people on those cruises in cabins with no windows—and they aren’t all newcomers.
What is the difference between whether they are newcomers or oldcomers? Fallacious thinking is fallacious thinking.
Again, John, I tried to address the things that seemed like the underpinnings of your post. Let me know if I glossed over something or if you want me to focus on in some particular aspect—or if I misunderstood you horribly.
T Beast
ReplyDeleteI haven’t read your entire post, because I don’t read huge blocks of writing any more. So I’m going to just answer to what I think you were saying.
Firstly I don’t speak in semantics. This is from what I have lived and experienced. I would ask you to open your mind to other people having different experiences, before calling it semantics simply because you haven’t experienced it yourself.
No, the soul is not outside of us. Actually most people have made themselves separate from the entirety of who they are and blocked off their inner knowing. They’ve limited themselves to what they see with their senses and work by ‘I can see it so I believe it’. They are programmed by societal fears and childhood wounds and that is how they make most of their choices. And so the feeling of being the puppet on the string comes from closing off to who we really are.
Our soul, which is us anyway (I’m separating it for the sake of clarity and to make the point) wants us to be free. Ok I’ll put it in non-separated language if you prefer: we really want to be free to be all that we are, not to be living based in fear.
Yes, Clarity I agree!
"What is the difference between whether they are newcomers or oldcomers? Fallacious thinking is fallacious thinking."
ReplyDeleteI think he's just trying to point out the irony in the most seasoned of Abers - the ones that should have it all down and be wealthy, healthy, happy by now are the ones miserable and broke... scraping just enough together to get their A-H fix on the open seas.
-Bryan
Bryan
Me: That claim is totally true and verifiable, since someone following his training played exactly as well as MJ. But if it somehow led me to think that I could play as well after taking this training, I’d be sorely disappointed.
ReplyDeleteI would say that this coach would just be taking advantage of the post hoc fallacy. As you pointed out, there are a lot of factors involved in how well a person plays basketball. It’s not necessarily true that it was that coach that enabled Michael Jordan to play like Michael Jordan to begin with.
I agree completely.
Science could to trials to tease out and weigh the various factors involved. But when we apply this to claims about the Law of Attraction, science doesn’t have the tools to track thoughts. Scientists could try more general approaches, but that would not provide firm evidence that the Law of Attraction exists. So even if we have testimonials, and MJ is a testimonial writ large, that doesn’t tell prospective students anything about their chances to be drafted by the NBA.
I find the statement, “Following my training can enable someone to play as well as Michael Jordan” very misleading. I think a more honest statement would be, “Following my training helped Michael Jordan become the awesome athlete he is.” Even then, we are left begging the question: how much was his coaching responsible for Michael Jordan's success?
Agreed. I like your statement better. I was accentuating the point that with physical events we have obvious markers (e.g., my height). With nonphysical events, they are much less obvious to most people. With either claim it would be relatively easy for someone to assess their chances of getting into the NBA. But with non-physical processes, it’s very easy to assume, I can do this.
Let me back up a moment and address where I’m headed with this. (I don’t know where we’ll end up, but I’m hoping it will be someplace positive where we are both clearer about our views.)
From my perspective, Abraham-Hicks is supposed to help people fly. So if people crash and burn, I want to know why. (In that sense, I think we are aligned, Kyra. We want to see if we can help people not get hurt.) I’ve been thinking about what everyone here has been saying—thank you Anon 8 for telling your story, and thanks T.Beast for telling us about your friends. And, Kyra, if I could sum up your position regarding Abraham-Hicks—as I understand it—in one sentence, it would be: False Advertising.
Who or what Abraham is, is important. But most want the principles to enable them to live a happier, more satisfying life. If they can’t do that, if people invest all their energy in the processes and still get sick, even if Abraham where proven to be the real deal, who cares.
So the most important disconnect I see is between the message, “You can do anything,” and the reality, “It’s not happening for me.” So that’s what I’m exploring.
(Continued…)
Let me use another analogy. I’ll make up a New Age platitude: It’s as easy to take a step forward as a step back, and it takes the same energy.
ReplyDeleteSounds like one of those sayings people send around in emails, and it seems basically true—unless your nose happens to be against a 30 foot wall. Then it’s a lot easier to take a step back. Again, if we are dealing in physical terms, everyone can see the wall. “Oh, that’s why John isn’t stepping forward.” Some people are standing in front of 2 foot walls, others are out in the open, and even others have the wind at their back. It’s obvious that saying, or any associated technique, isn’t going to work the same for everyone.
Using this analogy, one can say that it’s as easy to create a castle as a button—when there is no wall between you and the castle. For most of us there is a high wall of established beliefs. Abraham-Hicks refers to these beliefs as resistance, and that makes sense to me. And they discuss resistance and how to deal with it. But when someone can’t tell how big that resistance is—since it’s not like an obvious, giant wall staring them in the face— using the word “easy” can certainly seem like false advertising.
In a sense, we could both be right, Kyra. The Law of Attraction could work exactly as advertised, but the mental work required to cure something like Parkinson’s could be so great that it is essentially impossible. It’s like the physicists tell us that we could travel at close to the speed of light. But no one in New York is calling their friends in LA and saying, I’ll see you in a minute. It’s much easier for us to distinguish what is theoretically possible from what is practically possible when talking in physical terms.
If one can be, do, or have anything using the power of thought, then anyone willing to invest the mental effort could become as good as MJ. While most of us don’t try to make changes that dramatic, many people do take Abraham-Hicks literally about many things, and are encouraged to do so.
A final analogy. Abraham-Hicks tells two students they can cross any valley and come up the other side, and this gets them really pumped. One lives overlooking a shallow, mile wide valley. The other at the edge of the Grand Canyon. Both believe these principles work and go all out. Some hours later, the first one is on Facebook, telling everyone how good they feel and how wonderful the Abraham-Hicks teachings are. The second one is tired, hungry and feels like a failure. The second one may even be a more a skilled and dedicated hiker. Again, if we are looking at physical valleys, it’s obvious, but not if they represent relative distances between where people are and where they want to be.
I think whether or not people feel successful using the Abraham-Hicks teachings depends a great deal on how wide and deep their valleys are and on how high the belief walls are between where they are and where they want to be. We can see the relative size of the valleys to some extent. It is obviously easier to deal with a cold in most instances than with Parkinson’s. But there is no easy way to see the height of the belief walls. And if the challenge is too great, it really doesn’t matter if theoretically the Law of Attraction works or not.
But when we apply this to claims about the Law of Attraction, science doesn’t have the tools to track thoughts.
ReplyDeleteAs I’ve said, people could say that we don’t have the tools to measure all sorts of kooky claims about incubuses, Hell, and vampires. It doesn’t add to the validity of them. It’s just a convenient out.
So even if we have testimonials, and MJ is a testimonial writ large, that doesn’t tell prospective students anything about their chances to be drafted by the NBA.
It also doesn’t tell us anything about the reason for Michael Jordan’s success.
…I was accentuating the point that with physical events we have obvious markers (e.g., my height). With nonphysical events, they are much less obvious to most people. With either claim it would be relatively easy for someone to assess their chances of getting into the NBA. But with non-physical processes, it’s very easy to assume, I can do this.
I don’t follow this, so I might need some clarity here.
Let me back up a moment and address where I’m headed with this. (I don’t know where we’ll end up, but I’m hoping it will be someplace positive where we are both clearer about our views.)
Yes, I am finding this all very interesting to think about from these different perspectives.
…And, Kyra, if I could sum up your position regarding Abraham-Hicks—as I understand it—in one sentence, it would be: False Advertising.
Um…close…maybe even shorter: Fraud.
Who or what Abraham is, is important. But most want the principles to enable them to live a happier, more satisfying life. If they can’t do that, if people invest all their energy in the processes and still get sick, even if Abraham where proven to be the real deal, who cares.
Well, I agree in part here. I have some slight tweaks, but maybe I can sort that out later. Also, if Abraham were proven to be real (regardless of whether their materials were useful), I think a lot of people would care.
…Using this analogy, one can say that it’s as easy to create a castle as a button—when there is no wall between you and the castle. For most of us there is a high wall of established beliefs. Abraham-Hicks refers to these beliefs as resistance, and that makes sense to me. And they discuss resistance and how to deal with it.
I think you are discussing how the idea can work within the framework of LOA. However, since we have no proof that the universe even works this way, I don’t really see how this provides us with anything to show that it does. I could just as easily be having a discussion about how God rewards/punishes people from the nonphysical. It doesn’t add to the validity of that idea.
(continued…)
(continued…)
ReplyDeleteBut when someone can’t tell how big that resistance is—since it’s not like an obvious, giant wall staring them in the face— using the word “easy” can certainly seem like false advertising.
Again, we run into a bigger problem here, which is: the universe very well may not even work as Abraham Hicks says it does.
In a sense, we could both be right, Kyra. The Law of Attraction could work exactly as advertised, but the mental work required to cure something like Parkinson’s could be so great that it is essentially impossible.
The greater issue here is that LOA may not even be real at all. We might as well be discussing a God that punishes and rewards people based on how good/bad they are because there is just as much “evidence” for that as there is for LOA. I know I’m being redundant, but it’s because I feel that we are missing a very important point here.
It’s like the physicists tell us that we could travel at close to the speed of light. But no one in New York is calling their friends in LA and saying, I’ll see you in a minute. It’s much easier for us to distinguish what is theoretically possible from what is practically possible when talking in physical terms.
At least physicists are actually able to determine that there is a speed of light to base such claims on. Again, we don’t even know if there is an LOA to begin making any claims about.
I think whether or not people feel successful using the Abraham-Hicks teachings depends a great deal on how wide and deep their valleys are and on how high the belief walls are between where they are and where they want to be. We can see the relative size of the valleys to some extent. It is obviously easier to deal with a cold in most instances than with Parkinson’s. But there is no easy way to see the height of the belief walls. And if the challenge is too great, it really doesn’t matter if theoretically the Law of Attraction works or not.
This is all speculation, and none of it proves that there is an actual LOA that we can theorize about. We are left with this unproven idea that we can speculate on based on what Abraham Hicks and those like them say, but we have no way of actually discerning if it is true.
To me, it matters a lot if people are wasting their lives on something that doesn’t work—just as it matters to me if people are wasting their lives fearing evil because they’re afraid of going to Hell.
T.Beast wrote:
ReplyDeleteI can't believe a soul would want someone to starve or their families hurting for their own "spiritual" good in the end. I don't buy it because that would inevitably shorten their time on earth and how can they possibly spiritually grow without being in a physical body?
The people who believe in the Law of Attraction (or Abraham at least) would say that the "soul" (your part of Source, divine part or however you'd like to call it) sees the *broader perspective*. That is; your "soul" knows that your life on earth is not important, because you cannot die, you will be reborn anyway. Your "soul" is only interested in the "evolution/expansion of the universe". Whatever your experiences on earth are--if you thrive or starve, if you become president of the US or if you are killed by genocide--it all serves the "expansion of the universe". That's is your purpose, pal. Forget about being important as an individual :p
Man, you guys are just determined to make this LOA aren’t you? K, I’ll jump in. Just watched some of Seattle last Sunday, as much as I could bc it was so boring. I scan for faces of the hotseaters that catch my eyes. Ester’s monologue is always the same. I love the cute stories about how ITV Ester is almost all the time. One fello segment 2, boy did he look frustrated, disheartened, downright down. He’s been practicing just like he’s been told and wonders when his time will come (his words). Naturally Abe explained to him where he was not doing it right. That’s the thing with motivational speakers, they have to convince you that you are at fault, not the materials…and that’s how it is run in Amway. If you look at the titles of the Amway monthly motivational tapes its things like…
ReplyDeleteA new beginning
Have we given you hope
Maintaining the Balance
"Oh No! It's Working"
Motion Creates Emotion / Perspective
Possibilities Are Endless
He wasn’t the only one who asked how come LOA isn’t working but we see that all the time. Maybe there is LOA and maybe not. You two go round and round and round *wink*. The point is Abers that have been at this a long time are wondering how come when they follow all the directions nothing happens? Lots of Abers will tell you their lives are better bc of the positive attitude and a few have pulled of LOA but the ones that do relate that Abe’s way of teaching it is oversimplification. So if it is over simplification then what? Is infinite intelligence just not able to clarify how it works or is it that Ester can’t translate the blocks of thought? Or is it that Ester is just repeating things she has read and has not a clue how it really works if indeed LOA works? One would think infinite intelligence would have more detail then basically get in the vortex where all the stuff is. Be happy now and you will line up with your vortex. Abe even says there is no subconscious unless you activate it. What you are saying John kinda shoots that theory out of the water of just be happy doesn’t it…oh, and go general. I would expect more from infinite intelligence when an Aber asks how come it’s not working. Something actually more on the lines of the way you talk John has a lot more detail and you’re not even infinite intelligence. At least you give reasons for the hit and miss that have a little more ‘meat on the bones’. Why doesn’t infinite intelligence say ‘when you were 3 this happened which causes you to react in this way for said situation. Let’s chew on that and clean up the kink in your vibration’. Their answer is always the same, you’re not getting what you want bc you are wanting what you want and you have to not want what you want so you can get what you want. Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well.
Anyway, good news for anyone who wants to view the latest live Abeway. The torrent community is thriving. Wally just posted this today…
In the last 6 months, just one SeedBox has seeded 35 TB. It is like downloading more than 70 000 times all that we have. If my calculations are correct then every Abraham torrent is being downloaded over 100,000 times.
Have fun,
Wally
Ps…love how Abe pushes the cards they sell. It’s pretty darn cute and if you miss it in one segment don’t worry, it’s repeated in the next.
Hey Clarity,
ReplyDeleteMaybe there is LOA and maybe not. You two go round and round and round *wink*.
The only reason I point out my position on LOA is to emphasize the fact that we don't have any idea if what Abraham is saying about this "law" is true. We are just taking their word for it. For all we know, it could be like other New Agers claim: there is an LOA but there are also other metaphysical laws that can trump LOA (like soul contracts). I'm not saying that is true either. I'm just trying to emphasize the fact that we have no way of assessing their--for lack of a better word--"correctness" about LOA.
Clarity said...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, good news for anyone who wants to view the latest live Abeway. The **torrent community is thriving.** Wally just posted this today… **where?**
In the last 6 months, just one **SeedBox has seeded 35 TB.** It is like downloading more than 70 000 times all that **we have.** If my calculations are correct then every Abraham **torrent** is being downloaded over 100,000 times.
Have fun, Wally
Hi, Clarity. For the first time I'm not clear after one of your posts. I have no idea what you're referring to with the terms I've put in double **'s. Could you clarify?
Hi Kyra and Clarity,
ReplyDeleteMe: But when we apply this to claims about the Law of Attraction, science doesn’t have the tools to track thoughts.
As I’ve said, people could say that we don’t have the tools to measure all sorts of kooky claims about incubuses, Hell, and vampires. It doesn’t add to the validity of them.
I completely agree with you, and I think I could have approached my points in a clearer way. It seemed that I was trying to establish the validity of the Law of Attraction, but that wasn’t my intent.
Just so we’re on the same page: I think we can agree that science cannot validate or invalidate the Law of Attraction or what Abraham represents. We do not have any objective evidence that can prove or disprove these concepts. What anyone believes or does not believe about them is because they have come to their personal conclusions.
My impression is that many people here were attracted to the Abraham-Hicks material and are now mad at Jerry & Esther. There’s been a lot of discussion about whether Abraham is legit or not. It is generally known that our culture doesn’t believe in the validity of channeling, and scientist generally have a disdain for claims they can’t disprove, especially things associated with the occult.
I believe everyone knew this, or most of it, starting out. It wasn’t like 3 years in someone suddenly found out, OMG science didn’t validate Abraham. To me, the issue of, “is Abraham real” doesn’t, by itself, seem like a reason to be mad. Let me suggest a scenario that seems to fit, for me at least.
(Clarity, I wrote this before I read your post. What you wrote covers some similar ground—and I enjoyed your post.)
If I go to a witchdoctor instead of an MD and get better, that’s great. In fact, if he can help me get there without the usual prescription side effects and for much less money, wow. I’m leading edge. If someone later suggest the guy may not really be a witchdoctor, I pretty much shrug my shoulders. Well, whatever he has or is, it worked for me.
But say I don’t get better. I’m not mad at the guy for saying he’s a witchdoctor. I knew his credentials were sketchy. I didn’t have to go to him. However, if he claimed that if I followed his treatment I would get better, that can easily be seen as false advertising. It doesn’t matter if we call the treatment the Law of Attraction or Love Potion #9. If he says it will work and it doesn’t, something’s not right.
So now I’ve invested a lot of time, energy, and money in the witchdoctor’s treatment, and I’m not better. The guy might say, If you did it right it would work; look at all the people who are happy with my methods. I might say, I did it the best I could, and it didn’t work for me. Or I might just say, You’re a freakin’ witchdoctor and this is all a load of crap. Depending on how upset I was.
The point is, I would feel like I was cheated, not because he may or may not be a real witchdoctor, but because his treatments didn’t work. (Of course, if he was just a used car salesman from Cleveland, that would feel worse.)
So, I’m suggesting the anger here comes from smart people, giving it their all and not getting what they felt they were led to expect.
In my previous post, I was trying to figure out why people didn’t get what they expected from the teachings. Where is the disconnect?
My conclusion was, “I think whether or not people feel successful using the Abraham-Hicks teachings depends a great deal on how wide and deep their valleys are and on how high the belief walls are between where they are and where they want to be.”
By “Abraham-Hicks teachings,” I don’t mean that one has to accept Abraham as a discarnate group of personalities or even accept the Law of Attraction. I’m talking about the practical approach of looking for the best in things, focusing on what you do want rather than what is, appreciating, and so on. Many people do these things who have never been to a channeled session or heard of the Law of Attraction. And they are happy when they do them.
(cont…)
My impression is that people here have done the techniques to the best of their ability and in good faith—and haven’t gotten what they want. When I came upon Abraham-Hicks, my expectations were both very high and very low. I expected to get everything I want, but I also knew the big things would take a great deal of effort. I’ve been working on things that took 30 years to pay off, and some are still in the process.
ReplyDeleteI can see how Abraham-Hicks can make it seem like it should be easy, and what’s wrong with you that you’re not curing Parkinson’s quickly. They may say it’s about the process and not getting stuff, but I don’t really care if I get my dream house or my body whole after I’m dead. I want it now. So when I listen to the CDs it’s easy to get pumped up with hope. If I didn’t know how much effort it can take to change habitual beliefs, I would’ve been quite frustrated through the years, and often was.
Note to the editor and everyone else:
ReplyDeleteAfter taking a look at the activity taking place on Dave Stone's blog I think it's worth bringing up that the conversation is not staying on subject here (Jerry's illness and subsequent actions by A-H).
It appears that there's been yet another cancellation for an A-H gathering, with issues coming up regarding refunds or other compensation not being offered.
I think those are vastly more important matters as opposed to quibbling over semantics on the "LoA" which this blog has already done a great job at dismantling.
Just my thoughts,
Bryan
Hey again John,
ReplyDeleteSorry if I seemed to side-track back into LOA. As I said, I was a little uncertain about the direction you were heading and now I realize I was on a completely different page.
Here’s my beef. I’m going to base it off your witchdoctor analogy. The truth is: it’s not always just a dissatisfied customer. Here’s another scenario that I’ve experienced far more frequently: someone goes to a witchdoctor, and successfully gets rid of…let’s say…migraines. They’re all excited and now they believe in the power of the witchdoctor. Well, then they find out they have cancer, and this witchdoctor tells them that they have the power to get rid of cancer too. So, this person trusts the witchdoctor. After all, they were able to get rid of the migraines, so why not cancer?
This is where the danger zone is. People come to teachings like Abraham’s, they see some benefit with the placebo effect and what not, believe that that validates all of what Abraham says, and erroneously believe that they can cure things like HIV, Parkinson’s, and cancer using these materials.
To me, this isn’t just about people trying something and it not working or working. This is about someone trying something and believing that it is working, when really they are just being duped. It might be nice when they are getting rid of some back pain or a migraine, but it won’t be so nice when their body is deteriorating from something far more serious that no amount of their mental effort is going to change.
Regarding the unscientific nature of Abraham, I agree that people aren’t shocked to find out that Abraham can’t be proved (and LOA—Abraham has even said something about not being able to prove it). However, this does not mean that people aren’t being deceived. They are lured to take Abraham’s word for things because Abraham has said it can help them get the things that they want. They tell people they can be, do, or have anything they want. People want that! They want to be loved! They want to get rid of the HIV and the cancer! They want these things that Abraham is saying they can achieve using these processes! So, yes, it is important if Abraham is not real, and if everything they are saying is just Esther and Jerry’s big scam.
My conclusion was, “I think whether or not people feel successful using the Abraham-Hicks teachings depends a great deal on how wide and deep their valleys are and on how high the belief walls are between where they are and where they want to be.”
I think that’s a nice ad hoc hypothesis that keeps Abraham Hicks’ teachings from being invalidated, but that’s all it is. Again, this is going to sound like I’m beating a dead horse, but this is victim-blaming.
I’m talking about the practical approach of looking for the best in things, focusing on what you do want rather than what is, appreciating, and so on.
But there are many more claims offered in these materials than just about how you focus. There is the great promise of the results that you will get when you focus. This is why people use these teachings. They want to be free of illness. They want to have the money. They want to be a star. They are lured into these teachings believing they will help them manifest these things. I would prefer a teacher that just said appreciate things and you’ll feel better over one that tells you that will bring you closer to the things you want.
If you want to discuss this more in with the sort of detail that we’re doing it with here, I think you should email me at abrahamhicksfraud@gmail.com. I certainly have appreciated your willingness to take the time to share your thoughts, but I think I’m starting to just annoy people with my really long comments. As Bryan pointed out, this avoids the real issue of this particular post, which is about Jerry’s illness.
Hey Bryan,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. I agree that we have strayed quite a bit from the topic of the post. As you can see, I tend to ramble, and there is so much to talk about on the subject of the Hickses.
I do highly recommend people go over to Dave's page, where there is a great conversation going on about recent events in Abeland. I believe there is a link at the bottom of the original post.
UPDATE: This just in...
ReplyDeleteJerry and Esther have just sent out an email update on the whole Jerry Hicks situation. A special thanks to Clarity for pointing this out to me:
"We’re going to fly to Del Mar on Monday for the next phase of our rebalancing act in getting Jerry back on his feet and feeling frisky. Every day we’re experiencing the relief that we can only receive from Abraham as they remind us about the power of the Vortex. We are enjoying the comfort when we are able to ignore the temporary what-is."
Hmmm...what's going on in Del Mar?
Del Mar is their newest retreat/home overlooking the ocean.
ReplyDeleteHey Anon 8 *wave*
ReplyDeleteHere is the link to the torrent page…
http://koti.welho.com/walkusko/Abraham-Hicks_Torrents/index.htm
the page had to go ‘portable’ meaning it’s not locked into one specific server (I think) I don’t understand a lot about web pages, like mostly nothing at all *wink*. Wally, who started collecting torrents of Abe years ago, more recently formed a group buy google group. Ppl pitch into the pot money to buy a workshop. The workshop is then shared via torrent…
http://netforbeginners.about.com/b/2011/02/20/what-is-a-torrent-how-do-torrents-work.htm
In pc language ppl who share copywrite files are known as pirates. Originally Wally had the torrent page at some permanent location whatever that means that was controlled by google some how. In December I think Wally received a notice from google that he was doing something illegal. The complaint came from A-H publications which would mean the directive came from Jerry. This threw some members of the torrent community into a quandary. Why would Jerry do this bc it is in direct contradiction to Abe’s teachings about vibration and in specific Abe has said copywrite is bs, laws made ootv.
So Wally found another site to host the torrent page and Jerry complained again. By this time the flock was clear enough that regardless of what A-H publications said as source creators they summoned this group effort and it was given. Jerry and Ester’s abundance was not controlled by circumstance but by their own vibration. Good for them. Although they are deff flock oriented they are not as controllable as the flock on the Abe forum.
Shortly after Jerry’s last complaint to google the spider bite, wiley leukluse story hit the air waves. I wondered then if ole Jer just didn’t push himself over the top with his going after the torrent community. It’s one of the reasons at first mention of the spider thing it caught my eyes in such a big way. It was obvious to me that Jer was not following the teachings with his torrent persecution. That he was suddenly really sick made perfect sense to me.
That so many are downloading the torrents, oy vey. However, that the revenue is not going to the Hicks…right on. Now you mention that Del Ray is yet another home. Holy cow, how many do they have anyway? Not that I care if ppl are rich but ole Jer’s self proclaimed bio of he had already made his millions and now he just wanted to spread this message to the world is bs of the highest order. If that was his intention then he would not have gone after the torrent community.
"We’re going to fly to Del Mar on Monday for the next phase of our rebalancing act in getting Jerry back on his feet and feeling frisky. Every day we’re experiencing the relief that we can only receive from Abraham as they remind us about the power of the Vortex. We are enjoying the comfort when we are able to ignore the temporary what-is."
ReplyDeleteIts been almost a month since his chemo schedule ended (supposedly), and they're still ignoring the "What-is"?
50/50 chance he kicks the bucket, if not plan on some DIVINE marketing schtick come back from A-H land soon.
Here’s another scenario that I’ve experienced far more frequently: someone goes to a witchdoctor, and successfully gets rid of…let’s say…migraines. They’re all excited and now they believe in the power of the witchdoctor. Well, then they find out they have cancer, and this witchdoctor tells them that they have the power to get rid of cancer too. So, this person trusts the witchdoctor. After all, they were able to get rid of the migraines, so why not cancer? This is where the danger zone is.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. A friend of mine just told me that she has a wonderful family doctor, but recently she got something, and was it was just getting worse. Yesterday, she realized that what she has is beyond her family doctor’s expertise, and they should have referred her to a specialist.
I think this is in line with some of the experiences Anon 8 shared. I think we can agree that it is best never to blindly trust authorities, whether it’s doctors, priests, the government, or witchdoctors. Even well-meaning friends who have found something that's right for them can try to push you in a direction that isn’t right for you.
This is why people use these teachings. They want to be free of illness. They want to have the money. They want to be a star. They are lured into these teachings believing they will help them manifest these things.
Almost all (if not all) teachings take the position, if you take our advice you’ll have a brighter future.
From my perspective, Abraham-Hicks does bring many people closer to what they want. As you have noted, people have an optimistic bias, but that applies to everything they try.
However, Abraham-Hicks isn’t the best path for everyone, and it’s good for each person to know what’s helpful to take and what to leave. If all one takes from Abraham-Hicks is to appreciate more, that’s fine. Some people love Christmas carols but don’t accept Christian dogma.
I think we can agree that it is empowering when someone takes a step back from any authoritative message and asks, Is this valid for me? (Even the most validated medical interventions rarely work 100% of the time.) I see you encouraging people to do this with the Abraham-Hicks material, and your work can certainly help someone who is ill and feels like a failure for not being able to line themselves up. (Or who thinks seeking medical treatment would be wrong—although Jerry having done so should put that to rest.)
When someone tries any philosophical approach and it doesn’t suit them, it’s easy to fall into the “what’s wrong with me” mode, especially when others are singing its praises. So it can be a relief to see that they aren’t the only one, and that someone is standing up and saying maybe it’s the system that isn’t working. I know people who are living lives every bit as satisfying as the most ardent Aber, who have no interest in Abraham-Hicks or the Law of Attraction.
With any system, I think it boils down to knowing when to hold ’em and when to fold ’em. And I think that’s true for dialogues also. I agree with you (and Bryan) that now is a good time to move on.
Kyra, I really appreciate having this opportunity to dialogue with you. You are smart and knowledgeable, and I really had to think to match the quality of your replies. I had always thought there were basically only two groups of people, those who had little interest in Abraham-Hicks and went to maybe one workshop, and those who thought the material was wonderful. Thanks to you and others here, I now have a better understanding.
Clarity, thank you for joining in. And Anon 8 and T.Beast, thanks for sharing your stories.
I wish you all the best,
John
Bryan O'Neal said...
ReplyDeleteIts been almost a month since his chemo schedule ended (supposedly), and they're still ignoring the "What-is"?
~
Bryan Bryan Bryan…you need to give this time hon. Apparently Abe just now got around to this special something for Jerry~
Abraham recorded a wonderful segment for Jerry last night guiding him toward complete comfort and ease, and that is exactly what he is focusing on now.
~
You know those silly non phizzies…they have no sense of time *wink*. All kidding aside, this could be used as a lead in for Jerry going non phizzy. Abe guided him into comfort and ease to prepare him for the next leg of the journey to non phizzy land. It ‘seems’ like they are paving the way for his exit but this is just best guessing. Moving him to the vacation house could be that intention or to get him out of viewing sight. All just guesses at this point. If he does go non phizzy the story will read something like this…
Jerry so loved the world he gave his only begotten…no wait, that's another story.
Jerry so loved the world and wanted to protect the world that he built up a lot of resistance from pushing against ‘what is’ so hard. He devoted his life to bringing Abe to the world and that carried a huge responsibility and even more stress being in such a position. Now that Abe’s message is reaching the world (via Live Abeways, sign up now) Jerry felt he had completed what he came to do and taking the path of least resistance he decided he wanted to rejoin us and continue to work from the non physical realm to get this message to all that will hear. He will be elevated to sainthood, just you watch.
Hey John Waddell,
ReplyDeleteI also appreciate you sharing your insights here. It's been nice to get another perspective on this, and I think your comments will help people who read these in making their decision about whether or not these materials are something that they want to be a part of.
I hope you will feel free to comment on this post and other posts whenever you feel you have an insight to offer.
Thanks again for the discussion,
kyra
FYI: Clarity just alerted me to the latest in Abraham news. This is from an Aber discussion forum:
ReplyDelete"I just spoke with Worldview Travel. The Hawaii cruise is cancelled. Refunds will be being processed for seminar deposits. If you booked on board a Holland America ship your cruise deposit will go toward future cruise and not be refunded. I am not sure how it works if you did the deposit later."
And lets not forget Kyra, the non refundable deposit is $200 so use it or lose it. AH once again is not offering any kind of complementary workshop either in person or ‘live’. Although it was an Aber who brought the news to the Abe forum after she did David Gordon makes an appearance with this comment…
ReplyDeleteI found out about this early today and was waiting for a note from home office as to how to explain the particulars here. Direct all question to Worldview Travel for now. Otherwise, I don't see a reason for this thread to remain open. When I do get information they want here I will post it. You are welcome to PM me in the meantime.
~
And with that David closed the thread. Why? What particulars and why can't he get particulars? Fact is ppl were encouraged by David to sign up and now they are stuck with non refundable deposits. Maybe Ester will do a cruise ‘sometime’ with Holland America and maybe not. How hard is it to offer some free passes to AH events? I just find this a huge slap in the face to their flock.
This cruise was scheduled for Feb. Again, why cancel something so far in the future unless more is going on with Jerry than they are saying.
Inquiring minds~
I stand corrected. Cking Holland America for the Hawaii cruise, which apparently is still taking deposits if I read correctly here are the terms...
ReplyDeleteAUTHORIZATION: Submitting this registration form authorizes a charge to the above credit card for a deposit now for $600 per person in US Dollars for the cruise and a deposit of $300 per person in US Dollars for the seminar, and the final payment on November 14, 2011. Confirmation and further information will be emailed to you once registration is completed.
So with no formal announcement to the flock from AH and until they get their web page straightened out you can still sign up for the cruise. Who knows, maybe some stop gap as the registration is taking your money, dunno. Not to mention until this announcement yesterday the promo is sign up now bc things fill up fast.
Let's see...hurry, sign up, David Gordon doesn't bother to make the announcement the cruise is canceled. That sure shows a lot of consideration for the flock eh? Then again I guess $600 is just chump change.
Holland America offers full refund (no deposit penalty) for cancellations 75 days prior to sail date. Worldview Travel is the one ripping Abers off for cruise deposits and you are required to book through them to attend the seminars. They will refund all but $150 of the $600. Regardless, I agree that AH should pony up some sort of consolation prize.
ReplyDelete