*A special thanks to Ahnalira Koan for her help with this post.
The Abe Forum was created by David W. Gordon in 2007 as an online discussion board where Abraham Hicks fans could interact and discuss the Teachings of Abraham. With 10,796 registered members and nearly 1,000 active members, it is the largest Abraham Hicks fanpage to date. Since the forum's inception, its moderators have enforced strict guidelines that prevent members from discussing Jerry and Esther's personal lives, Abraham Hicks Publications' business practices, other New Age gurus, and any topic that may reflect poorly on the teachings. Most recently, to prevent a surge of comments regarding Jerry Hicks' death to leukemia, The Abe Forum moderators posted in bold letters: "Posts in the "main" forum, Abraham Teachings and you, are open only for that topic and not comments about Jerry."
The Abe Forum claims no affiliation with Abraham Hicks Publications, and moderators insist that their restrictions serve no other purpose than to keep the forum focused on its primary intent: "Abraham Teachings and You." But could there be more to the story?
In 2007, Abraham Hicks Publications had an official forum called Abraham Hicks Community Forums (not to be confused with the current The Abe Forum). Here's a screenshot of it from March of 2007:
The Abe Forum creator, Gordon, was a "Super Moderator" on this official forum. See the screenshot below:
According to Ahnalira Koan, "Webmistress" of the official Abraham Hicks Community Forums and 6-year Web Developer for Abraham Hicks Publications, Gordon was hired by the Hickses to moderate the forum. But in May of 2007, Esther saw a thread on the forum that she felt did not paint her in a particularly flattering light, and the Hickses demanded that the entire project be shut down. That same month, not-so-coincidentally, The Abe Forum was born. Below is a screenshot of The Abe Forum's "Welcome" message, posted on May 3rd, 2007:
Koan says, "Jerry and Esther did not own The Abe Forum, but my understanding is that they subsidized it. While I don’t know the exact deal they came to, I do know that as recently as last year, he [Gordon] was collecting monthly checks." If you look at the screenshots below, you will see that Jerry and Esther are even listed as registrants for domains (abraham-hicks.net and abraham-hicks.org) that link to Gordon's Abraham Hicks fansite, which in turn links to The Abe Forum.
From abraham-hicks.org registration (I have removed Gordon's personal information):
From abraham-hicks.org registration (I have removed Gordon's personal information):
From abraham-hicks.net registration:
Nowhere on The Abe Forum does Gordon disclose this connection to Abraham Hicks Publications and the Hickses. In fact, under the heading "Abraham Teachings and You" is the disclaimer: "The Abe Forum is in no way sponsored or endorsed Abraham-Hicks Publications." In a separate thread, one forum moderator writes, "...the Forum is not affiliated with them [Abraham Hicks Publications] in any way." Clearly, this is not the case.
*Dave Stone has an interesting post on The Abe Forum called Did Abraham Hicks Kill Ari? In another post, he discusses his experiences with being banned from The Abe Forum.
*Mariah writes on this in A Suicide Cover Up on The Abe Forum?
Thanks Kyra (and Ahnalira). This was a real eye-opener. I have been reading posts over the past few days that have alluded to this revelation, and had I known right off the bat that this was the case, I would have left that forum a long time ago. It never felt right--the control, lack of freedom, all the things Esther's altered ego speaks of. No pushing against and trying to control others. That is supposed to all be upstream, but seemingly not for David Gordon, et al. I could never quite understand Leslie's connection. She doesn't need the money. Her father was the first black billionnaire, yes, billionnaire, in this country, and when he passed away years ago, left her very well off. Anyway, that they clearly state at the top of the forum that there is no connection to AHP, yet there is, is more fuel for the fire of conspiracy. Not that I needed further convincing, but this knowledge peels one more layer off the Abraham is a fictional persona dreamed up by a very talented salesman and his accomplice wife scheme.
ReplyDeleteThis is the disclaimer at the top of the Abe Forum. Again, that they felt the need to clearly state no connection when there is gives posters the idea that this is an independent forum, and they have in no way been fenced into a pen only hearing what the "master" wants them to hear and know. A master sales pitch under the guise of a normal everyday forum, albeit one in which there are no actual discussions with different points of view. It is just like the repetition of a children's book. Same thing over and over until the announcement of a new regurgitated book, DVD, seminar or meditation CD, and then the flock are excited and ready to buy, preordering it to be the first to read any "new" concept that will bring them closer to all they ever dreamed of owning and being.
"Forum: Abraham-Hicks Teachings and You
Discuss how you are using the Abraham-Hicks materials and teachings in your life. Your primary source of information on the Teachings should be the Abraham-Hicks materials: www.Abraham-Hicks.com --there is a wealth of information made available there by Jerry and Esther Hicks and Abraham. Read the guidelines BEFORE posting. Ask yourself how your post feels before hitting "send". The Abe Forum is in no way sponsored or endorsed Abraham-Hicks Publications."
Tina, Kyra, and Ahnalira,
DeleteI am one of the Administrators of the Abe Forum. I'd like to add my perspective to what's being written here. I joined the Abe Forum a few years ago as just another member who was interested in Abraham's teachings. After about a year, I was asked to join as a moderator when a couple of the moderators were taking a break, they both ended up stepping back from being moderators. After about a year as Moderator, I was asked by David to be a co-Administrator. After a while, we decided to ask Leslie to a Moderator. That just gives you a sense of how things have developed since my involvement.
The main points I'm reading from Kyra's original post, along with Tina's comment and and paraphrasing some of the others:
Delete1. That David has a relationship with A-H Publications. As such, the Forum is really just a mouthpiece, or infomercial of A-H Publications.
2. That the Forum is moderated just proves that A-H Publications is in control.
3. Generally that what Jerry & Esther do is a scam.
I can respond to points 1 & 2:
1) Yes, as you've demonstrated, David, personally does do work for A-H Publications. The history of the Forum goes back further than you stated, as originally things started off as an e-mail list. That does not, however, mean that the Forum is being controlled by A-H Publications. David's intention is to respect Jerry & Esther's work, we do try to keep a good relationship with them.
That said, we're certainly not just a mouthpiece for them. Indeed, a couple of years ago, as Ahnalira can attest, A-H Publications actually asked us to change the name of the AbeForum, because they didn't like us using the term "Abe" in the name. Ahnalira would know, as she was the one who wrote me the e-mail asking us to do so. We declined, and Esther relented after bringing the question to Abraham, who suggested to Esther that she stop trying to control the uncontrollable. I can only tell you that from my experience, the relationship between the AbeForum and A-H Publications isn't always a cuddly one.
2) The issue of Forum Moderation. Yes, this is an issue that certainly rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I'm certainly well acquainted with it as I'm often the one who gets PMs from people who would prefer that we change the way we do them so that they can feel better. Here's my personal perspective -- If you were on a discussion forum dedicated to discussing Chess, your expectation is that the discussion is going to be about Chess. You're not going to be surprised that if you try to discuss Basketball that your discussion is going to be removed. Furthermore, if you're wanting to discuss how you think Basketball is superior to Chess, or that the people who discovered Chess or play Chess are evil, then a discussion board for Chess is probably not the best place for you.
DeleteNobody is "penning" anyone anywhere, people come to the Forum, presumably, because they want to discuss Chess... or in our case, Abraham's teaching. I don't quite understand why some find that threatening -- if you're wanting a different perspective, why not go to a forum that's based on that different perspective, or whose intent is to compare perspectives? Just because we've chosen to discuss Abe's teachings at the Forum shouldn't be taken to mean that it's the only valid perspective. It's a framework of understanding things that some people find helpful and worthwhile, which is why we discuss it.
Why do we moderate? We've found that it makes a difference in the way the discussions are focused, and the way the AbeForum feels. I know that rubs some people the wrong way. There are other forums out there, including those that discuss Abraham's (and other spiritual) teachings that aren't moderated, such as AbeTalk. Personally, I prefer the way we do things at the AbeForum, after having read through AbeTalk. Doesn't mean they're wrong for doing things that way, or that the way we do things is better, just my own preference and people always have the freedom to choose what they prefer too.
3. I'm not here to try to prove what Jerry & Esther are teaching, nor to defend AHP's business practices. I don't know J&E personally, I also don't know anyone at AHP personally, aside from saying hello to Scottie who greets people as they walk into workshops. I can say that I've found Abraham's teachings to be helpful in my own life.
DeleteWhat I have observed, however, from being involved with the Forum, attending a few Workshops, and dealing with others is this -- people seem to lose sight of the fact that we're dealing with real, flesh and blood humans here. No, neither Jerry & Esther deserve to be put on a pedestal, nor should it be a surprise to anyone to discover that they're imperfect. The same is true for the rest of us at the Forum. I'm involved in it on a daily basis, simply because I've found the teachings to be of value, as well as helping others to understand them to help me understand them better, and on top of things, the general goings on there are just illustrating the teachings in a tangible way.
I'm not trying to dissuade any of you from your perspectives - I don't always agree with the way AHP does things, there are times I've been upset with Abraham's teachings myself, I don't always agree with other posters or some of the discussions that go on there. At the same time, while I'm not trying to say that the puzzle can't fit together in the way many of you say it does, as someone who should have intimate knowledge (being involved on a daily basis) of a supposedly grand conspiracy, what you're saying is going on at the Forum just isn't...
In closing, I sincerely hope you're able to find something that does work for you, whatever that might be.
-Marc
One final thing:
DeleteOne of the things that I think that causes people trouble is that they confuse the message with the messenger. Again, I'm not here to dissuade people from criticism of AHP, or skepticism of Jerry & Esther, or of the Forum. If you'll listen to Abraham closely, what you'll hear is that they encourage us to try it out for ourselves. It's not a matter of taking things on "faith" or buying the next book, DVD, or Workshop recording, that gets you where you need to go, and that's something they made very clear at the Phoenix 2011 workshop. Really, it's something you can try out for yourself and you will get your own evidence. Personally, I think it's fine if you never buy one thing from AHP, you decide to Torrent or Share all of their material, and think that the way they do business is just terrible. That doesn't mean that the core of what Abraham is teaching isn't valid -- and it's something you can test for yourself without spending a cent. I've had times where I've wanted to "test" it, I've been incredibly focused and specific, and had results that were too precise for there to be any other explanation than the basics of LOA are true. It doesn't make it a magic wand, nor am I saying that I'm living a perfect life. What I am saying is that it's possible to separate whatever criticism you may have of Jerry & Esther or AHP from the message itself.
Hey Marc,
DeleteFirst off: thank you for offering your insight in all this. I did have a few comments I wanted to make regarding your response:
The history of the Forum goes back further than you stated, as originally things started off as an e-mail list.
I mention The Abe List (which I’m assuming you are writing about) in my comments to this post. It was not included in the actual post because I thought adding another “Abe XXX” would lead to confusion, particularly among readers who were unfamiliar with The Abe Forum and Abraham Hicks Community Forums.
If you were on a discussion forum dedicated to discussing Chess, your expectation is that the discussion is going to be about Chess. You're not going to be surprised that if you try to discuss Basketball that your discussion is going to be removed.
To make your chess analogy more appropriate for the issue under discussion, we would be discussing a chess forum that has ties to Hasbro, endorses only Hasbro chess products, and then claims not to have any affiliation with Hasbro. Can you see how this might seem more suspicious than just a generic chess fanpage trying to keep things on topic?
One of the things that I think that causes people trouble is that they confuse the message with the messenger.
However, in channeling, this is a tricky point to make. Abraham has said that the messenger’s beliefs affect the message that is being offered. If someone was “channeling” a message about Hell and wrath, it’s likely Abraham would say that the reason they interpret that message as such is because of the beliefs they held regarding spirituality and Hell. Similarly, Esther’s so-called “interpretation” of nonphysical is expressed in similar vernacular as materials that she was reading before she began her supposed “channeling” (or “receiving”). She was exposed to Seth. She was exposed to Napoleon Hill. She was exposed to The Aquarian Conspiracy (this one, in fact, in the early stages of her experience with Abraham). She was exposed to the Amway prosperity/thought philosophies. Theoretically, her so-called “interpretation” has been infected with these ideas, and as we look at the Abraham materials, we can see that they have been. That said, this idea of separating the message and the messenger seems erroneous to me, since (theoretically) in channeling, the messenger and the message are tangled together—not distinct separate pieces.
Regarding me, or anyone, “testing” the materials for ourselves, I do want to point out that I spent many years using these materials. I thought I had manifested things and even thought I had healed myself of various ailments. During that time, I said many things similar to your statement: “I've been incredibly focused and specific, and had results that were too precise for there to be any other explanation than the basics of LOA are true.” Just because I believed that, doesn’t mean it was actually the case.
Also, in response to your statement about separating criticism from Jerry and Esther Hicks from the teachings themselves, I do this in various comments. As I mentioned to Wisdom of Spirit earlier, this post is not about the veracity of the teachings or Abraham. If we are to discuss that, we should discuss the relevant arguments.
(continued...)
(continued...)
DeleteNow, back to the main issue, which is The Abe Forum’s ties to Abraham Hicks Publications. I have shown that there is such a connection (which is not disclosed on the forum). You seem to think that I am erroneous in thinking AHP controls The Abe Forum. However, I remember a few years back when Jody and David (The Abe Forum moderators) were made responsible by AHP for dealing with AbeTalk. To help make my point, I would like to submit to you this post from “Rodney” of AbeTalk:
The details of the situation unfolded as follows: Abraham-Hicks publications had hired Jody Baron, under the title of Business Intelligence, to scour and find websites that used the Abraham-Hicks trademark, and report any website that might associate the trademark with any unfavorable content; Jody stumbled upon a thread titled "Vagina smells like...?" in the General Discussions section on Abe Talk, and used it to file a report; David sent me an email requesting that Abe Talk remove Abraham-Hicks from the title bar and header.
This wasn’t even Jody or David’s forum, but they were clearly attempting to control it for AHP. Am I supposed to believe that AHP does not make similar requests of Jody and David, regarding their own forum?
I’m not implying there are never disagreements between AHP and The Abe Forum, but just because things aren’t always working perfectly for them doesn’t diminish the fact that there is clearly still a connection.
I have only read part of Marc's post up to this point, and will reply on that, with more to come when I have more time.
DeleteMarc,
I remember you before you were a moderator and then co-administrator. I’ve been around for a while.
With that said, I would like to address a few of your points. I will put your statements in quotation marks so as do differentiate
1. “The issue of Forum Moderation. Yes, this is an issue that certainly rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I'm certainly well acquainted with it as I'm often the one who gets PMs from people who would prefer that we change the way we do them so that they can feel better.”
I see this from a different perspective. I have always thought, in line with Esther’s teachings that it is the moderation of the forum that is trying to control others so that they (the administrators and moderators) can feel better. Controlling and pushing against posts they do not feel are appropriate for the forum.
Also, in line with Esther’s teachings, I have always felt that it is the work of administration of the forum to align with what it is THEY want of the forum. If what Esther says is true, David, yourself, et al, need to align with your desires and intentions for the forum and visualize how you would like the forum to be, visualize everyone cooperating with your set forth intentions, and everyone who is not a vibrational match to your desires will simply vibrate away from the forum because they will not be a match to it. Also, in visualizing, aligning and focusing only on the wanted, that is all the moderators and administrators will eventually see—only that which is wanted posted on the forum.
However, that is not the way it is done. There is action taken on the part of the administrators and moderators, when all that is needed is for them to simply alignment with their desires instead of pushing against the unwanted. This is all in line with Esther’s teachings. And when I followed Esther’s teachings, it always felt odd to me that the Administrators and Moderators didn’t seem to follow the teachings themselves. In other words, telling others not to push against unwanted, not taking any action until aligned. If Esther’s teachings are true, all David had to do was align with his intentions for the forum. It obviously, in my perspective, didn’t seem to work, as he had to resort to pushing against that which was unwanted to him; action against others which was done in order to make him feel better.
(cont)
DeleteMarc: “Here's my personal perspective -- If you were on a discussion forum dedicated to discussing Chess, your expectation is that the discussion is going to be about Chess. You're not going to be surprised that if you try to discuss Basketball that your discussion is going to be removed.”
Tina: If I were on a board that discussed only chess, I would expect the forum members would discuss not only chess, but also those involved in the world of chess—the players. For example, if Varuzhan Akobian won a game, I would expect to see posts about him winning. Also, if he had cancer, I would expect a discussion about that too, as it is all related to chess. That Jerry and Esther are completely off topic on a forum that revolved around them, in other words, the are Abraham’s teachings, you cannot distinguish Esther from Abraham (although I no longer believe Esther is channeling, but making it up). However, with that said, when one translates for such beings, one becomes almost one with the teachings, and to not allow questions to be asked, that leads one to suspect something may not be on the up and up. People who have nothing to hide aren’t afraid to answer questions. Jerry’s cancer diagnosis was one of the biggest elephants in the room. If Jerry had a direct line to Abraham and still sought out the “big guns” and other treatments, how can the rest on that forum expect they can accomplish anything through these teachings. I know it is said it was the path of least resistance for Jerry, but really, if he knew for a fact that Abraham existed, he would have put more trust in him, at least that is my perspective.
I saw in the thread on love for Jerry someone wrote (and I am paraphrasing here): Thank you for showing us how it is done Jerry. Happy, healthy, happy, healthy, dead.
My sister worked with a woman who this past Christmas Eve was celebrating with family, sat on the couch, gasped in once and died of a heart attack. To me, that is a better example of happy, healthy, happy, healthy dead. Jerry’s situation was more like happy, healthy, sick, getting the big guns, still sick, dead.
That Esther and Jerry are /were willing to make a living of Abraham, they are fully entwined and there should be very little distinguishing between, at the very least, Esther and Abraham, since she is interpreting (and if I believed Abraham were real, hope she is interpreting the blocks of thoughts correctly). As such, she should be held as responsible for the words coming out of her mouth much the same as Abraham. That Jerry and Esther are off topic on the forum, indicates something to hide. People have legitimate questions of the teachings and those involved that should be answered. For all the questions Jerry apparently seemed to like to ask, he certainly didn’t like to answer many.
Tina,
DeleteAlso, in line with Esther’s teachings, I have always felt that it is the work of administration of the forum to align with what it is THEY want of the forum. If what Esther says is true, David, yourself, et al, need to align with your desires and intentions for the forum and visualize how you would like the forum to be, visualize everyone cooperating with your set forth intentions, and everyone who is not a vibrational match to your desires will simply vibrate away from the forum because they will not be a match to it.
To bolster your point, this is from when David discussed the forum with Abraham:
DAVID: And anyone that veers away from that purpose, and that's very easy to do, can be disallowed by me as the administrator.
ABRAHAM: But wait, but wait. You see, here's the thing that we very much want you to hear. Don't try to mess with the law of attraction, and don't take it upon yourself to be the allower or disallower. Instead what you are wanting to do is to set the tone so clearly and then let law of attraction take care of the rest. Then it will be free-flowing and it will be exhilarating.
In deleting comments, are you not being the disallower of those comments and not letting "law of attraction take care of the rest"?
The question at the end of the above comment was for Abe Forum moderators (not Tina).
DeleteKyra and Tina, I think you both have done an excellent job addressing Marc’s entreaty to “separate the message from the messenger,” and you’ve done it from the perspective of people who once bought into Abe’s message. In that regard you have more credibility in this discussion than I do (seeing as how I am a career snark/cynic and all :-)), but I thought I would add my two-cents’ worth anyway. As I’ve shared with some of you privately, I have addressed the “separate the message from the messenger” issue numerous times on my own blog. My take on it is twofold, and, I think, is basically in congruence with Kyra and Tina’s opinions as I understand from their comments on this discussion. My two basic arguments are this:
Delete1. It's very difficult and often impossible to separate the message from the messenger in a cult-of-personality market filled with mercenary New-Wage gurus who strategically stamp "the message" with their own brand. Of course, they have to do this if they really want to make money selling what is basically derivative material. In regard to the channeling/imaginary friends industry, messages from “other dimensions” and “mysterious all-knowing sources” are a dime a dozen. Branding is one of the things that makes the difference between a life of struggling with crappy self-published e-books and cut-rate workshops at local metaphysical centers, and the ability to “figure-eight” across the continent in a luxurious motor home or host lavish sea cruises. Anyone can channel Saint Germain or the Archangel Michael. Those who are able to make up – and market – an *original* imaginary bud (or group of buds, as the case may be) have an edge.
Moreover, most New-Wage gurus tend to market themselves and their private lives, either explicitly or implicitly, presenting their personal triumphs (and conspicuous-consumer goods) as examples of the "truth" and effectiveness of the stuff they're peddling. Very often, that tactic backfires eventually when their health and finances and relationships are revealed to be not so perfect, but apparently it does work for a while.
It seems to me that Jerry and Esther and a few of their minions have not only been fierce watchdogs of the Abe-Hicks "brand," but Esther and her late lamented spottier half have also repeatedly used themselves and their personal lives as examples of how Abe's teachings "work."
2. Separating the message from the messenger becomes moot when the message itself is suspect. I realize that the value, or lack thereof, of messages and teachings is generally a subjective thing, and I’m not even marginally qualified to give a critical analysis of the Abe-Hicks teachings in particular, since I haven’t studied them in detail. (I just stick with my basic opinions that Esther is making it up, and it is all about the money.) I also realize that many people, even those who are now Abe-Hicks skeptics, claim to have received some benefit from the teachings. And who am I to argue with them on that point? But I have also observed that people who have a real emotional and/or financial stake in a particular set of teachings will continue to lie to themselves and others about that value even after serious doubts have begun to set in.
If you’ll allow me the indulgence of another link, here’s an old blog post addressing these issues in general: http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2009/11/lies-that-blind.html
Hi Marc,
DeleteFirst, let me say how much I appreciate that you came forth using your real name and willing to engage in an open discussion. I have great respect for you in this regard :)
As for what I can attest to... I can attest that Jerry and Esther had an ongoing battle with David Gordon about the use of the trade-marked name, Abraham-Hicks and that they asked me to represent them on several occasions on this topic. At one point, I do recall, they approved the name of the Abeform and the Abe-list. I don't specifically recall sending you and email asking you to stop using the name Abeforum, but if you have that email and will send it to me at ahnalira@ahnalira-connectedcounsel.com I will come back here and "attest" to it :)
On the topic of separating the message from the messenger... This was a dialogue I had with myself almost the entire time I worked with the organization - everytime I observed or experienced unethical behavior, in fact. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that it isn't possible - nore wise - to do so. I wrote an article about my reasonings for this on my blog. I'm not going to go into all of them here, but if you want to read it, you can find the article at:http://www.ahnalira-connectedcounsel.com/awakening/nature-the-infallible-teacher/ It's called Nature, The Infallible Teacher.
Best regards,
Ahnalira
To add some context to this quote:
Delete"ABRAHAM: But wait, but wait. You see, here's the thing that we very much want you to hear. Don't try to mess with the law of attraction, and don't take it upon yourself to be the allower or disallower. Instead what you are wanting to do is to set the tone so clearly and then let law of attraction take care of the rest. Then it will be free-flowing and it will be exhilarating"
When Andrew Wilcox started a thread that upset Esther and Jerry on the Abraham-Hicks Community Forum (where I was the administrator), I referred them to this logic and they didn't agree with it. Not only did they think the post/thread should have been immediately deleted, they wanted the entire forum shut down immediately as a result of it having been left up for discussion. Shortly thereafter, the Abeforum was born and I was told by Esther that she had decided to let David and Jody run a forum for them (with David still collecting a monthly stipend) because David and Jody assured her that they could control the "message" better than I had. I wasn't there for the conversations between the Esther, Jerry, Jody, and David so I can't say exactly what happened. But I was there for the conversations that included me :P
Best regards,
Ahnalira
Hey Cosmic Connie,
DeleteThank you for offering your insights. Sometimes I think that my proximity to the teachings keeps me from being able to address them in a way that is coherent to those who aren't familiar with Abraham and the teachings, so it's nice to have someone with an outside perspective on all this.
I definitely agree that Abraham has always used Jerry and Esther as examples of the effectiveness of the materials, continuously offering examples of how Jerry and Esther were able to use some process or another to come into alignment with some desire they had.
Hey Ahnalira,
DeleteThanks for clarifying some of the points mentioned in Marc's comments. I definitely remember Jerry and Esther having issues with others using their trademarked Abraham Hicks, but I had never heard of them objecting to the use of the more generic Abe with either The Abe Forum or AbeTalk.
Thanks again for the insights!
Ahna~you never cease to amaze me :)
DeleteI continue to be amazed (though shouldn't be) at how much Jerry and Esther control everything to do with their business. Preaching from one side of her mouth about not controling others and not pushing against, all the while utilizing these same techniques to bully their wayon a forum which can only praises them and put them on a pedastal--talk about an EGO TRIP.
DeleteMarc, if you do come back, please go to the bottom of the newer postings and read my post. I really would love some answers regarding Ari's suicide and David, Jody, Jerry and Esther's control to clean up the forum of a suicide victim who just couldn't understand the faux "teachings" that were dripping out of Esther's mouth. Oh, indeed, the message and the messager are one in the same.
Kyra:
DeleteMy responses to your issues.
1. Chess vs. Hasbro analogy. Can I see how limiting discussion to Abraham's teachings could raise suspicion? Sure, and at the same time, it's really a matter of preference. If you'll pardon the analogy, someone who's interested in vampires in general, might not necessarily be a match to someone who's interested in Anne Rice's Interview with a Vampire, and might not be a match to someone who's interested in the Twilight movies. Depending on what you're looking at, those are at one level very similar things, and at another level, very different things. It's perfectly legitimate for people who want to discuss the specifics of one to insist that they stay on topic. Does that mean that they're being paid by the studio? No, some people just want to discuss Twilight or Anne Rice, or whatever. Again, it's not my intent to disprove anything, you're certainly entitled to reach different conclusions. I'm just explaining why we do things the way we do.
2. Message vs. Messenger - I'm really not interested in proving or disproving what Esther does, or validating AHP's business practices. My point was only this -- if the message is of value you to you, great. If it is not, great, I hope you find something else. I've found value in it, and that doesn't have anything to do with the credibility of Jerry & Esther, Abraham, or AHP. Rather, my own life experience bears out what Abraham has expressed. If that's not the case for you or anyone else, that's just fine.
3. Re: Jody
DeleteI don't have any knowledge of Jody's business affairs. At the same time, I would think that a thread entitled "Vagina smells like...?" would be removed no matter what, as it's not something I think is appropriate for the Forum. Is there a "connection" between the AbeForum and AHP? To some extent, yes. Would that have made a difference in the example that Rodney brought up? Of course not. If you had flagged that sort of post, we'd have done the same thing. Look, as I've said before, we start from a place of respect and appreciation of Jerry & Esther, Abraham, and the work that they do, which includes the people at AHP. Will we change the name of the AbeForum if Esther asks? No. Will we take down patently offensive threads? Yes. Again, we really don't hear from AHP much, but it's fine if you'd like to imagine that there's coordination that doesn't really exist. Just letting you know what my day to day experience has been.
Tina:
DeleteMy responses:
1. "I have always thought, in line with Esther’s teachings that it is the moderation of the forum that is trying to control others so that they (the administrators and moderators) can feel better."
Completely true. And yet, it's the way we do things, and your rightness or wrongness doesn't really change it one bit. Again, there are other Forums that do it differently, AbeTalk in particular. Really, I understand where you're coming from, I do. We're not perfect in the way we apply Abe's teachings or administer the Forum. And at the same time, I'm just going to shrug my shoulders and say, "So what?" It's not any of our jobs to be perfect just for you. We do things the way we think we should do them, and that's our prerogative.
Marc did send me a copy of the message I sent to him as a representative for AHP on Jan 27, 2010. It was request to stop using the trade-marked name Abraham-Hicks on the website. Happily, my memory is still intact :P
DeleteMarc, I appreciate your pursuit toward clarity.
Best regards,
Ahnalira
Hey again Marc,
DeleteThank you for returning to respond to some of our comments. Some of your responses, however, seem to distract from what has been clearly pointed out here. As Ahnalira has written, David Gordon was paid by the Hickses to create The Abe Forum to better control the message. And as I explained in the Jody and David example, Jody and David (Abe Forum moderators) have been used in the past by AHP to help control content about AHP. If you think I am merely imagining this connection, that's fine with me. It still does not make what The Abe Forum is doing in not disclosing its affiliation with AHP any less unethical.
(continued...)
DeleteRegarding the AbeTalk post, "Rodney" is discussing how Jody and David, acting on behalf of AHP, were trying to censor content on AbeTalk (which neither Jody nor David had the authority to moderate on). It is not about them trying to censor content on their own forum (The Abe Forum).
Tina:
DeleteI may be at #2, I don't remember. You mentioned something about Jerry croaking and a suicide. I feel like this really ties back in to the issue of Forum moderation and the way we do things the way we do. My understanding of the Forum (which, frankly, holds a lot of weight as I'm actively involved in administrating it), is that it is intended to be a highly practical place. By that, we mean, we're not there just to talk about happy things, or to talk about spiritual things, but we're here to apply what Abraham teaches about the Law of Attraction in a practical way, in our own lives. So, in my mind, the issues you (and others) bring up really just bear out why we do things the way we do.
Imagine, if you will, that I'm a physicist. Specifically, quantum mechanics. I run a Forum where we discuss quantum mechanics and how to better apply how QM works. Specifically, we've found that we really like the way Einstein expressed QM, we've found that he's exceptionally clear and his writings have really helped us understand how the physical universe works. There are other physicists who write about and teach about QM, but there's something about Einstein's work that works for us.
So, if you were to come and say, "You know, Einstein is a horrible person. He was a bad husband, a bad father, not to mention a horrible fame whore." All arguably, literally true. "Worse than that, he came up with the atomic bomb and thousands of people are dead because of him, and it's his fault that we've been on the brink of nuclear war." Again, quite true. "On top of it all, he's a horrible physicist, he wasn't even able to come up with a Unified Theory (a theory of "Everything")." Again, quite factually true.
Delete"Therefore, Einstein is a sham and we shouldn't talk about QM as Einstein described it." Wait a second. Does. Not. Follow.
Again, even though everything you say is arguably true, it's really not relevant to my understanding of QM, it doesn't affect how we're each able to apply what QM means and to utilize it to our benefit, nor does the fact that there are outcomes we don't like make much of a difference. It's really not relevant. All that stuff is really a distraction.
And that's how I view the Forum, as well as what Abraham teaches about LOA. I'm sorry of some of you have reached the conclusion that what Abraham teaches is an ethical code, or religious principles by which we should all live our lives, or that Jerry & Esther, AHP, or the AbeForum are somehow supposed to be proving those teachings to the world.
I know I am not that. That's definitely not what I signed up for. Rather, I'm there because I like talking about QM... or Abe's teachings, rather. I've found their expression of LOA helpful, and I enjoy helping others understand and apply it, just as it helps me understand and apply it in my own life.
J&E are off topic because they're a distraction, quite frankly. J&E being successful doesn't make me successful, my thoughts and my alignment do. Jerry croaking doesn't make me not successful, my thoughts and alignment do. That's what it comes down to, in my opinion. I don't agree with everything J&E do, or that AHP does, or that ANYBODY does. None of you ever owed me that responsibility. Again, all of that is a distraction, because none of you are responsible for how I feel, I am... and I mean that in the kindest possible way.
That's my two cents.
Hi Marc...
DeleteI too appreciate your willingness to dialogue with us on issues. Some of us, actually quite a large number, are still in the dark as to why Ari's suicide was covered up. I say covered up bc not only was she reduced to guest (and beautiful avatar removed) but her last post was removed. Her last post was the day before she committed suicide. She was excited about her son's wedding, sorry she didn't have a nicer dress to wear and anxious about seeing her ex after so many years. What would be the issue with this post and why would it be necessary to remove it?
It just seems so odd that a long standing member's death was handled in this way. One or two post were made attempting to bring up Ari's death. They were removed and pm's from Jody said the admins and mods (including you) decided it was not a topic for forum discussion.
Further it would seem that a benefit would be derived from discussing such...and if other members ever feel suicidal (which in reading forum post it does come up) it would serve to help those members and perhaps help another member that might be dealing with the same thoughts. Ari participated on many threads where forum members were dealing with depression. How do you think it affected them when they heard of her passing and saw how her 'case' was handle?. Several went to read her last post...just because it was the last thing she ever said to the group and were shocked it had disappeared.
This is an issue that is very important imho...and noticeably absent from your replies to questions asked. This is not some minor little thing Marc...it is a long standing member that killed herself and the issue was swept under the rug asap.
Like Jody said in pm to Tina...
I don't think we are "grieving" for her or really in any way having to deal with her passing, so a thread just to let people know that someone who was on the forum is now in non-physical doesn't make sense as far as topic.
But wouldn't it be more accurate to say Jody, David, Scott and you were not grieving? It certainly was not the case for other forum members. Is there some determining factor on which grief is valid and which is not?
There was grieving.Do you think that just because she was not a relative that her passing would not merit someones feeling grief?
re Jody...
The reason I'm hesitant to allow a discussion of Ari is that she was sort of anonymous here - if she was your mother, then of course I would allow you to discuss your use of the Abraham teachings while "dealing with" (for lack of better phrase) her death. But just the fact that she was a forum member doesn't seem a "good reason" for us to get into a discussion of it. Does this make sense?
~
Ari, who was an active participant in the forum becomes just another 'anonymous' forum member. So anonymous that ppl knew her as Karen, as an artist with a son named Ari who had been through many challenges and clung to abe to make sense of it all. Pretty darn anonymous if you ask me???
Open discussion was not only not allowed but post deleted that tried to bring it up. And of course the troubling question...why was her last post removed???
If you have the omph to answer this including the last post thing I'll be impressed.
Hey again Marc,
Delete"Therefore, Einstein is a sham and we shouldn't talk about QM as Einstein described it." Wait a second. Does. Not. Follow.
We can empirically prove Einstein's theories, meaning regardless of his character, the theories work. When Esther Hicks (or Abraham) is able to empirically prove her ideas, then a comparison will be warranted. At present, her ideas rely on appeals to authority (in her case, Abraham). When an argument is rooted in an appeal to authority, it is natural that we should first question that authority. Unlike Esther Hicks, Einstein's theories are not rooted in appeals to authority.
Hey again Marc,
DeleteWill we change the name of the AbeForum if Esther asks? No.
In light of what Ahnalira has posted, there is no evidence to suggest that Esther has ever asked The Abe Forum to change it's name (or as you originally stated, remove "Abe" from the name).
Kyra:
Delete1. Appeals to authority-
I disagree. I've empirically "proven" what Abraham teaches about LOA to myself. They explain how LOA works, it's testable, and I tested it, and things worked exactly as they said they would. I was incredibly specific, and got manifestations that were similarly specific as to eliminate the possibility of happenstance. That's why I find what Abraham teaches to be helpful -- because it's consistent with my own experience. I definitely encourage people to trust their own experience over what anyone else says.
Does that mean that other people don't rely on what Abraham says based on appeals to authority? Of course not, but is that really about Abraham, or about them? Plenty of people have no direct, empirical evidence of Einstein's theories, either, they simply rely on the fact that authorities have vouched for them. That doesn't make Einstein's theories any less useful, or any less accurate in describing the way the world works. Again, whether you or anyone else choose to investigate for yourselves is all about your own choices, and someone else's decision not to investigate for themselves is just about their decision not to investigate for themselves, in my opinion.
2. Changing the AbeForum's name:
Yes, I spoke with Ahnalira, I sent her the e-mail I received from her a couple of years ago. As she mentioned, it was a request to remove the term "Abraham-Hicks" from the site, rather than change the name. My original point still stands -- it's what Esther wanted, but it certainly wasn't a reasonable request, from our standpoint, and just because Esther wants it doesn't mean we do it. As long as I'm involved, I can guarantee you that. And as an aside, asking a Forum that's supposedly an "infomercial" for your product to remove the name of your product has to be the most illogical sales tactic I can think of.
Clarity,
DeleteOn the Ari issue. Honestly, I don't remember the details of what happened. You quoted Jody's PM, and I can't speak to what she did because I'm not her. I'm sure we could have handled it in a different way, I'm not suggesting that you don't have legitimate grounds for criticism.
At the same time, we simply don't feel it's appropriate to make the personal lives of our members topic for conversation. That's the same way we handle discussions about J&E, as well. The purpose of the Forum is to discuss applying Abraham's teachings to our lives. To veer too far off into what someone else is doing really gets you off track, and we as moderators will step in when that happens too. We've had members rant about other members, which we've removed, about ex-lovers, which we've either removed or curtailed, etc. Again, I can certainly accept that people would feel like there are other approaches, but we're pretty consistent.
That said, I can understand the grief that some of our members have. We've never made the topic of death to be off-topic. Certainly it's an issue people encounter and it's ripe for discussion. At the same time, the Forum is what it is -- a discussion group focused on discussing applying Abraham's teachings. It's not a support group, a crisis line, or a therapy session. That doesn't make anyone's grief or other feelings invalid, it simply means that the Forum has a discrete, well defined purpose that we stick to. Does that mean that the Forum doesn't meet everyone's needs in the way they might like it to do? Absolutely. Does it mean that Forum members have to discuss off-topic issues elsewhere? Yes, it does. I've said it on many occasions, I understand that there are other, equally valid, ways of running a Forum, and they're out there.
I doubt that's going to be a satisfying answer for you, but we're fairly consistent and that's the way we do things.
Hey again Marc,
DeleteThanks again for responding.
I've empirically "proven" what Abraham teaches about LOA to myself. They explain how LOA works, it's testable, and I tested it, and things worked exactly as they said they would.
This would actually be considered anecdotal evidence, not proof. It's not a very scientific assessment because it relies on post hoc reasoning to validate LOA. Your anecdotes are not a controlled experiment. If Abraham told you oranges cured headaches, and you got a headache, ate an orange, and the headache left, you could just as easily say, "Oranges cure headaches because it's what they said, I tested it, and it worked." But just because there is a correlation does not mean that the headache was cured by the orange. There are other explanations: the placebo effect, the headache played out its natural cycle, etc. With your sort of "testing," any sort of psuedoscience could be validated.
Plenty of people have no direct, empirical evidence of Einstein's theories, either, they simply rely on the fact that authorities have vouched for them.
If people choose to investigate Einstein's work, they can empirically prove or disprove his theories. This cannot be done with Abraham's materials (Although, if you--or any authority, including Abraham--would care to produce some scientific proof of their validity, I will be more the receptive). The Abraham materials rely on appeals to authority. Einstein's work does not rely on appeals to authority.
And as an aside, asking a Forum that's supposedly an "infomercial" for your product to remove the name of your product has to be the most illogical sales tactic I can think of.
It's actually smart if Esther and Jerry didn't want to seem as if they were personally involved with The Abe Forum. Some people, seeing the trademarked name on the website, are likely to assume that there is some collaboration. So, if Jerry and Esther didn't want it to appear that way, it's likely they would not want the trademarked name to appear on the site.
Kyra,
Delete1. Appeal to Authority
You missed my point, and you're using a bit of a moving target. Whether you agree that my personal experience constitutes "proof" or not, my use of Abraham's teachings relies not on an appeal to authority, but on my own experience. Is it scientific proof? No, I don't claim that it is. But I can still "test" the basic principle that Abraham teaches, in a variety of contexts, and see for myself whether my experiences affirm or conflict with how they say it operates. That may make it not-scientific, but it's certainly not relying on appeal to authority. If your only response is that it's not scientific, while that's certainly a valid observation, quite frankly I really don't care. Your objections, at that point, are about dogma, though scientific dogma.
2. Infomercial
Yes, some who see the name "Abraham-Hicks" trademark might think there is some connection to AHP, which explains why Esther would want the name removed. That's why we've made the disclaimers that we're NOT collaborating with AHP... because J&E DIDN'T want us to use it, and they DID ask us to remove it. That's what the objective facts say. To turn around and reach the conclusion, then, that really it's all just a big mind-fuck (to be blunt) on behalf of Jerry & Esther in an effort to bamboozle us all and push more product in an incredibly brilliant manipulative masterwork... well, that's certainly one hypothesis. It's just not supported by the evidence.
Certainly, someone such as you is familiar with Occam's Razor -- the hypothesis with the simplest explanation is the most plausible, absent evidence to the contrary. Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation -- that Esther's request for us to remove the name Abraham-Hicks was exactly what it appears to be on the surface: an attempt to exert control over the Forum that failed. That may not comport with the story you've constructed, but it's the simplest, most plausible one.
Hey again Marc,
DeleteIt seems our comments are sidestepping the issue of the post, which is not the veracity of the teachings or Abraham. Though I clearly I have thoughts on these (and you do too), this post is not really discussing that.
I have not meant to suggest that Esther's attempt to remove AH's trademarked name from The Abe Forum was not a failed attempt at controlling the forum. However, that does not immediately prove that she has never been successful at controlling it otherwise. The present evidence shows that AHP has paid David Gordon to maintain The Abe Forum and that they even own domains that link to The Abe Forum. I've also shown a time where AHP hired David and Jody (moderators of The Abe Forum) to exercise control over a separate forum (AbeTalk). I don't really need to show much more to make my point. That alone is reason enough to encourage skepticism of The Abe Forum.
Kyra,
DeleteOnce again, we're all capable of reaching our own conclusions. I'm simply giving everyone my experiences from the past few years of involvement at the Forum, which differ from what you're implying. "Is there more to the story," you ask. Again, from my day to day involvement, my answer to your question is, "Perhaps, but it's much less than you're suggesting."
Have there been attempts to influence or control the Forum? Unquestionably! There have been attempts by Esther, by you, by Ahnalira, by other people who participate on this blog, by our members, by me, by David and the other Mods, as well. Those attempts meet with varying levels of success. The only difference, is that you've decided others' desires to control the Forum are less legitimate than yours. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't dress it up to be more than it is.
Hey again Marc,
DeleteAs you said, I think people are more than capable of drawing their own conclusions. As mentioned previously, Gordon, moderator of The Abe Forum, was paid by Esther and Jerry to create the Forum. Gordon has been previously hired by the Hickses to censor content on a forum that was not moderated by Gordon. And Gordon still has domains (registered by Jerry and Esther Hicks) that link to his AH fanpage. It doesn't really need to be dressed up for people to see the problem.
There's nothing wrong with that, but don't dress it up to be more than it is.
And don't keep pretending there's no affiliation between The Abe Forum and Abraham Hicks Publications.
And don't keep pretending there's no affiliation between The Abe Forum and Abraham Hicks Publications.
DeleteAnd don't keep pretending that something must be so simply because you insist it must be so. It's perfectly fine that you choose to give credit to evidence that supports your conclusion and ignore evidence that contradicts it. That's human nature and we all do it. It's simply disingenuous, however, to suggest that your conclusion is the only reasonable one. Don't presume that your conclusions don't also warrant a critical look.
It's perfectly fine that you choose to give credit to evidence that supports your conclusion and ignore evidence that contradicts it.
DeleteI am assuming you are referring to the fact that AHP asked The Abe Forum not to use AH's trademarked name on the site and they continued to anyway.
This doesn't contradict what I have presented. I've had plenty of jobs where my bosses have told me they wanted me to do something, and I told them I wouldn't. In many cases, they have conceded because I was able to make a reasonable case for my decision. That didn't mean that there was no affiliation between us. That said, there's no reason to assume that because people disagree about something that they are not affiliated.
Marc said…
DeleteIt's not a support group, a crisis line, or a therapy session.
~
No one asked for that Marc…from Tina’s email to Jody…
I honestly feel a guided thread, perhaps started by a moderator with clear intentions in place of it being about Ari and the teachings of Abe to keep the flow on the experience of death from Abe's perspective would be beneficial to those on the board following Abe and his words. We need to comprehend and totally understand that death is not something we should be afraid to face, it can't be swept under the rug, but should be addressed in some fashion. Even to make a positive comment about Ari transitioning and then locking the thread would be better than not acknowledging her transition at all.
Considering the Charlie thread from the hall of fame, the little boy who died from a riding lawnmower accident, and that his mom was brand new to the forum looking for help, I just can’t see how Tina asking for an Abe guided discussion is anywhere equated with support group, crisis line or therapy session. You know what that is Marc…that is doublespeak and putting the discussion of Ari into a demeaning light.
http://www.abeforum.com/showthread.php?11850-I-lost-my-3yr-old
Anne said… This is my first time posting. I have read all of Abraham's books and amHUGE believer is all things well.
~
And the thread goes on for 15 pages. Does that constitute a support group?
Few weeks later from the same mom… attracting tragedy? 3 pages
http://www.theabeforum.com/forum2/12830.html
Maybe by your own criteria you should lock John Waddell’s thread discussing his grief and LOA questions regarding the passing of Jeanne, his wife. Case you missed it…week ago.
http://www.abeforum.com/showthread.php?8851-Hello&p=487619#post487619
Why did Jeanie leave?
Her leaving has been the most difficult circumstance for me to deal with in my adult life.
~
So why don’t you explain to me how the threads above are not support groups? And what in the world is wrong with supporting a member dealing with death? Tina endeavoring to be in proper Abe form asked for a discussion on Ari’s suicide and two posts were made inquiring about Ari’s death. Both post removed and like I keep pointing out, so was her last post the day before she committed suicide. My best guess since you refuse to answer (sry, don’t remember) is it looked bad for the preachings…putting on that happy Aber face and next day killing herself. Not the strongest testament for how well the preachings work. And Tina was basically told to button it.
Also not answered by you why was Ari then made guest? I mean if there is no death and Ester and Abers are referring to Jerry like he is still here wouldn’t that make Ari still here and therefore still a member?
I don’t expect you to answer me bc you speak in doublespeak.
The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold. ~Aristotle
Kyra --
DeleteI want to step back a moment. I went to the Forum today and noticed that David had put an announcement that there are now a bunch of workshops scheduled. Now, from my standpoint, it makes a lot sense because because workshops had ground to a halt with Jerry's passing. At the same time, I can certainly understand where something like that is going to come off as the Forum's just the mouthpiece of AHP if you're already in the mode of feeling some sort of suspicion. I really do get that. I see where that seems like 1+1=2. That's not our intention, IMO. None of us benefit financially if someone goes to a workshop or buys AHP material, but really, I accept that you can draw that conclusion. We're doing this because we believe in the material and enjoy the discussion, but I can accept that some can reach a different conclusion.
Clarity,
DeleteMy intent isn't to try to trample on your feelings of loss, or on Ari and her life. I accept that it's the way you feel, but that's not what I'm trying to do. Yes, it's natural to feel loss and the issue of physical death often stirs up a lot with people. That's not a discussion we shy away from on the Forum -- as you point out, there are many discussions where we try to help people navigate through death and loss.
I understand why you'd have a sense of loss, I do. At the same time, we're simply not going to treat ANYTHING as a tragedy. Again, I understand how off that's going to sound, and it's not my intent to inflame your sense of loss. I say that not because I'm trying to demean Ari -- I don't have the ability to demean her, I say that because if I really accept what Abraham teaches about death, and the Forum is a place where we try to really exemplify that (even as imperfectly as we do it) then it doesn't make sense to treat things in the way you're asking, does it? Again, I get where your criticism is coming from, and at the same time, that's the way we approached Jerry's transition as well, and we've received some of the same criticism for it. As we've done with Jerry, I believe we would have welcomed a thread of celebration and appreciation for Ari, but is that really what you are asking for? As with a lot of people who have asked about Jerry, they're wanting a place to grieve, to validate their sense of loss and to find others who share it. That's what this gets down to, doesn't it? And while we don't mean to INvalidate the way you feel, that's something we don't do. We didn't do it for Jerry, we didn't do it for Ari, I would expect that we wouldn't do it for me if I croaked. To do so would deviate from the REAL truth, would it not?
-Marc
Marc, you’re talking in circles again. I’ve asked specific questions that never receive an answer. Why was Ari’s last post removed? Why was her status reduced to guest? Don’t worry…I don’t figure you will answer.
DeleteYou said…
I believe we would have welcomed a thread of celebration and appreciation for Ari, but is that really what you are asking for?
~
Wasn’t me that asked Marc…it was Tina. Sounds pretty clear to me what she was asking for. You can read the full context of the email above in my previous comment to you.
Tina said~
I honestly feel a guided thread, perhaps started by a moderator with clear intentions in place of it being about Ari and the teachings of Abe… Even to make a positive comment about Ari transitioning and then locking the thread would be better than not acknowledging her transition at all.
~
Hardly sounds like someone asking for a tragedy thread to me. Do you even realize that ppl mentioned Ari in threads after the fact having no idea that she was dead? Couldn't even make an announcement??? I bet when you go there will be an announcement...any of you. Ari was off limits bc she did the unspeakable even tho 'Abe' does speak of suicide. If you so believe in Abe why not ask them...Abe what should we say to members when they ask about a member that commits suicide? Do you think Abe might say, like they have in the past, that even in suicide they find such great relief and we should celebrate that relief? I've heard just about those words fall from Ester's lips. Abe has talked with hotseaters about suicide on many occasions...so why not Ari...why indeed? Tina specifically asked for an Abe guided discussion. If Abe will discuss it on the hotseat why is it blocked on the forum?
But alas Tina was told to button it by Jody with the comment… But just the fact that she was a forum member doesn't seem a "good reason" for us to get into a discussion of it. Does this make sense? It is what feels right to me and David and Scott and Marc.
And just to clarify…I didn’t know Ari, was not a participating member of the forum. Do I feel saddened and angry over how her passing was ignored, erased…you betcha. Do I think it a travesty…you betcha. Do I think there was an ulterior motive for deleting members post on her passing, reducing Ari to guest and DELETING HER LAST POST…you betcha. One of your long standing, frequent posting members, a dedicated Aber, committed suicide and you, David, Scott and Jody decided amongst yourselves to cover it up. I would find it impossible to believe David did not consult with the Hicks first. It's a cover up Marc and there is no two ways about it. You only reinforce that by first ignoring Tina's questions about this earlier and now sidestepping my questions. People that are telling the truth have nothing to hide.
There is really no point in going over this anymore. You’re not going to give me a straight answer and I acknowledge that.
“It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one.”
― George Washington
Marc: I believe we would have welcomed a thread of celebration and appreciation for Ari, but is that really what you are asking for?
DeleteTina: I really don't have much to add here, and Kyra et al are doing a good job responding to your posts, but I have to comment on this. My post that day (of hearing of Ari's death) was in the Jody birthday thread. I posted something I really didn't mean to Jody, because I wanted my post to stay on the forum and so worded it in a way that would be in line with Abester's teachings. My post was something to this effect:
Happy day of arrival into the physical Jody, and happy transition from physical to non-physical to Ari.
In other words, I acknowledged Jody's celebration of her date of arrival nto physical, and acknowledged Ari's transition to nonphysical in a positive light, as Abester preaches it is supposed to be. It was removed, followed by a PM from Jody that they (moderators) decided all talk of Ari's transition would not be allowed on the forum.
I do not think I could have been anymore celebratory in Ari's death announcement than I was. I may not have meant it, and even my good wishes to Jody, but I did word it as such, and it was still taken off the forum, so your claim that a celebratory or appreciateion thread (or postings) for Ari would have been welcomed is not correct.
A forum member comitting suicide was clearly swept quickly under the table. The biggest indicator of this is how quickly her member name was reduced to guest. There would be no reason to have done this, except to cover up the tracks that led to her suicide.
This whole revelation reminded me of something, but I could not quite put my finger on it. It just came to me. After hearing this information, it seems that forum is nothing more than an informercial, so to speak. It is like sitting down and thinking you are watching a real program, and it turns out to be an informercial disguised as a cooking show. The Abe Forum is nothing more than an informercial for a AHP. Talk about duping the masses and being duped without even realizing it.
ReplyDeleteHey Tina,
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting. I've actually added a line from the forum disclaimer to the post.
Yes, for years, the forum has tried to give the impression that it is independent from Abraham Hicks Publications, but clearly that just isn't the case. I think it's incredibly deceptive to not disclose your affiliation with companies, especially when you are being paid by them to create fanpages and endorsements. Of course, I think most people who have interacted with The Abe Forum have realized that something was up, but maybe couldn't quite put their finger on it.
I think your statement about The Abe Forum being nothing more than an infomercial for Abraham Hicks is very appropriate. Lots of talking heads nodding and agreeing, only because no one is allowed to dissent.
Thanks again for your comments. I think your comment represents how a lot of us feel about the forum.
If this were the 1950's the Abe forum might be accused of communistic practices. The way it is run is very much text book communism. Of course the witch hunts, in this country, against alleged communists in the 50's was, in it's way,a dreadful form of communism itself. Kyra, I am so glad you made the whole forum thing so much clearer! I tried to join around the time of Jerry's spider bite, trying to get some info. I mentioned this before in a comment I think. They had to vet me they said, I guess check out that I wasn't on some black list or something, and when they emailed that I was now allowed to join, I thought, "ooh, this is too much stuff and nonsense" and didn't bother. I think Tina's take on it being an informerercial is wonderful and terribly true. I also noticed the statement that this was not a place to talk about Jerry. I found that so cold. I did read, either on the forum or on the Abe site, that ONLY Ester could access Abraham. Now I do remember, early on, Abraham saying over and over again at seminars "You don't need to come to these seminars and be in the hot seat to talk to us, you can talk to us and hear us anytime on your own." I guess that statement would not be allowed on the Red Abe Forum. I wonder if they will be issuing uniforms next, at a high price of course. PS. I don't think communists are awful at all, just those who to suppress information that doesn't follow party line or sell more propaganda, or hair products.
ReplyDeleteHey charmcat,
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by.
Yes, the forum was very hush hush about Jerry's croaking. However, they couldn't completely suppress dialogues about it, as there was a thread about disease and medicine at that time that started to not-so-subtly discuss Jerry's death (without actually naming names). That thread was closed when one moderator posted: "There's no point in trying to dissect whether any individual is able to come into alignment on particular issues. We're just not going there. We're back to where this thread started, and it's clear that while we've had excellent discussion, it's time to close this thread."
Like you, I think Tina's take on it being an infomercial is pretty accurate.
Hey again charmcat and Tina,
ReplyDeleteI did want to add: I guess the difference between an infomercial and what the forum does is that an infomercial has to disclose its affiliation with the company its advertising for.
THEY'RE SO STRICT OVER THERE!! I posted asking if anyone else can channel Abraham asking for more "proof" and they immediately deleted it.
ReplyDeleteI posted another thread talking about people who reside consistently "in the Vortex" [like homeless people or pot-smoking friends who are dumb fat & happy but broke with no relationships..) in other words, people who are NOT getting results, which threatened their teachings, and they immediately deleted it..
I posted another thread about my doubts in Abraham and how come Jerry and Esther aren't getting any younger if they are "in their Vortex" all the time and I was IP-banned. LOL.
Fishy? ;)
That's not a forum; it's a hype-producing marketing tool.
And having been in an informercial to help out a friend who owned a casting company, one doesn't get paid for their testimoney, as Mr Gordon apparently does. One of my favorite comments from him was regarding how expensive it was to get a new server because the one they were using kept crashing. Poor Dave just couldn't get himself aligned with a smooth-running forum. He was shaking the "empty can" looking for donations, afterall, that forum, from what they want you to believe, is a labor of love from David (direct quote from him), and it exits purely on donations.
ReplyDeleteFull disclosure: The informercial was for an aching muscle cream, and it really did work. I could feel the heat penetrating..ah, wish I had some now after hunching over my broken laptop, which is situated too low for my chair... And once again, I digress..
Hey Open Mind,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
...I was IP-banned.
Dave Stone was also banned from the forum. And the only reason he was even commenting was because there was a thread where Abe Forum members were criticizing his lenses. He rightly went on to explain his POV. They didn't particularly care for that...
That's not a forum; it's a hype-producing marketing tool.
Yup, that's the gist of it.
Hey again Tina,
ReplyDeletePoor Dave just couldn't get himself aligned with a smooth-running forum.
Aw. Poor guy. Perhaps all his "pushing against" dissent on the forum isn't making it easy for him to stay aligned with his desire.
...afterall, that forum, from what they want you to believe, is a labor of love from David (direct quote from him), and it exits purely on donations.
Yes, David Gordon has always pronounced it as his labor of love, and even more specifically, unaffiliated with Abraham Hicks Publications. That may have all been true in the beginning. There was a time where Gordon was not so entrenched in AHP(in the 90s before he started making deals with Jerry and Esther), but it certainly is not that way anymore.
I've heard on Blog Talk Radio that Bobby G had claimed that Abraham came through her also...It is really a shame that trying to cover things up really opened the questions "are you for real" because I would think that would never be necessary.
ReplyDeleteWow Kyra,
ReplyDeleteThis proof you found is pretty glaring, IMO, and I don't know how anyone, (Aber or no) could look past it.
Thank you!
Hey LadyJtalks,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
It is really a shame that trying to cover things up really opened the questions "are you for real" because I would think that would never be necessary.
Personally, I think the question "Are you for real?" should always be on the table. By that, I don't necessarily mean considering deceit or fraud as much as I mean considering alternative explanations for phenomena.
Hey Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
This proof you found is pretty glaring, IMO, and I don't know how anyone, (Aber or no) could look past it.
Well, one thing I have never criticized Abers for is a lack of creativity. Give them a moment, and they will find a way. Even if they can't look past it, they can at least turn the other direction and start making focus wheels and Books of Positive Aspects.
Lol about the focus wheels! They're going to have to start pulling all-nighters to maintain their level of denial. (it reminds me of the See/hear/speak No Evil monkeys). I am beginning to see how much Abe Hicks and followers resemble other fanatical religions.
ReplyDeleteThere is a certain clarity in the simplicity of fact that speaks for itself. No matter how anyone takes the information and interprets it, the facts are irrefutable.
ReplyDeleteFor me, the power of these facts is that claims were made that are proven false. That makes all claims worthy of scrutiny. Whether or not the scrutiny reinforces an acceptance/belief in any one claim or another becomes less relevant to me than the intention to scrutinize.
Kyra, what you model for me in this article is the power of the scrutiny.
Best regards,
Ahnalira
Hey Rachel,
ReplyDeleteThey're going to have to start pulling all-nighters to maintain their level of denial.
I remember those...those were some interesting nights.
Hey Ahnalira,
ReplyDeleteThanks for dropping by.
For me, the power of these facts is that claims were made that are proven false. That makes all claims worthy of scrutiny. Whether or not the scrutiny reinforces an acceptance/belief in any one claim or another becomes less relevant to me than the intention to scrutinize.
Very well put.
Of course, once again, much appreciation for your help on this.
I have no idea what it costs to run a forum, but is there such a thing as a non profit forum? I mean if some one donates money to the Abeforum, is it tax deductible? I would guess not, and that Mr. Gordon doesn't have to be accountable for the donations he recieves. Wow, what a genius scam. Not only are the forum members donating copy (their comments ), to sell more and more Abraham, they are funding the machine which makes it possible. I call that double dipping or insult to injury. I have a feeling Dave does need the donations because I will bet that the Hickes are/were pretty cheap and nickle and dimed it where they could. (from reading Ahnalira Koan's experience of working for them} I wonder if the Hickes asked for a percentage of the donations, or Dave learning from the masters, manages to pocket anything over and above the operating costs?
ReplyDeleteThis was posted by Mr. Gordon:
ReplyDeleteMyself, Super Moderator Leslie and co-Administrator, Marc are equally sharing contributions now. If you feel inclined to contribute to the Forum, clicking the button at the bottom of the front page will bring to you to a secure PayPal site to contribute equally to Leslie, Marc and myself.
Thank you for all you do to support this marvelous co-creation!
with Love,
David
-------
I imagine Sheerluck and Honeypie are also getting some of the contributions. Seems that if David were getting paid, he would allow his worker bees to pocket the contributions, but I guess he considers that attracting more abundance. As for Lesie, I can't imagine she actually takes a share, but I guess nothing would surprise me... That David doesn't mention his monthly payments from the AHP speaks more loudly than that so-called labor of love.
My God Tina, I can't stop laughing at your last post. At first I only saw the opening sentence and really thought it was Dave, and then thought, " Gee whiz, they are really monitering this blog 24/7. " You know, in my bones I do believe these blogs are going to change Ester's teachings. "Inspired " by the comments WE all have made. Which may actually be good for the abers. Of course Jerry will get the credit for it. being the mysterious bridge we, or rather the abers, have to figure out for themselves. Thanks for the great laugh Tina!
ReplyDeleteCharmcat, glad you got a good laugh. You're moving up the EGS, and that's a good thing. haha(gag).
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with your comments. I am sure there are many for whom the teachings aren't making any sense or feel "off" in some way. Without blogs such as Kyra's, Dave's, Connie's and Mariah et al, most are forced to rely only on what they are reading on the Abe Forum, not realizing they are immersed in one big informcercial/marketing scheme. As more start to "Google" and find these sites, they may come to realize "hey, I was thinking the same thing and thought I was the only one."
The bottom line is that one would expect infinite intelligence to be smarter than a fifth grader. :-/
Esther was stumped and said Jerry was a bridge. When asked for clarification, the hot seater was told to figure it out. There is a discussion on that forum with, of course, different interpretations of the bridge and it's potential meeting. I can imagine AHP combing the site for an answer that sounds good to them so Esther can further elaborate at the next seminar.
ReplyDeleteMy only question is now that they made Jerry a bridge, how much will they charge in tolls for the followers to cross. It does sound like it could be their next big "repackaged" money maker.
Data to support my smarter than a fifth grader comment. haha I think Esther got stuck with the bottom of the infinite intelligence barrel.
ReplyDeleteGuest: Abraham, can you talk to me about OCD?
Abe: What is it?
Guest: Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
Detroit 9/22/2007
Fine work as usual, Kyra, and kudos to Ahnalira Koan for your contribution. I only recently heard of David Gordon, and this was a result of conversations with long-time Abe-Hicks critics. However, in light of the (c. 1998) transcript I recently read of David G. in the hotseat -- a "conversation" that purports to give background on how he came to take over an Abe mailing list -- I would have just assumed that he sold his soul to the Hicks years ago. (http://whatanicewebsite.com/faces/abraham_comment_about_the_list.htm) Then again, my assumption is probably a result of my own biases at work, as Clarity might say. What does seem clear is that Dave G. planted his nose up the Hicks' apertures years ago, and even though one of those apertures has now crossed over to a place where presumably no physical nose can follow, there's still plenty of real estate for said nose in this dementia…um…I mean, dimension.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I do feel a measure of compassion for Dave G., knowing from experience that some of the most extravagantly wealthy New-Wage hucksters are, to put it charitably, not generous when it comes to paying for creative or administrative services. They'll gladly throw small fortunes at the providers of luxury consumer products that clearly show the world how "successful" they are. They don't mind flashing their leased Rolls-Royces or their McMansions or their expensive imported whatevers, but they nickel and dime the folks who work for them, as Charmcat noted.
Regarding a subsequent comment by Charmcat (in response to one of Tina’s comments), it seems to me that the critical bloggers do have an effect on the targets of their criticism, despite said targets’ general refusal to officially acknowledge the blogs. But sometimes I wonder if we’re doing little more than helping them hone their marketing copy. If so, they’re getting hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of marketing consultation gratis.
In any case, my tiny bit of compassion for Dave G. does not override my contempt for the scam operation to which he is obviously beholden. Expect more Photoshopping and blogging from this corner soon. :-)
My only question is now that they made Jerry a bridge, how much will they charge in tolls for the followers to cross.
ReplyDeleteTina, I like your style ; )
Hey Cosmic Connie,
ReplyDeleteHowever, in light of the (c. 1998) transcript I recently read of David G. in the hotseat -- a "conversation" that purports to give background on how he came to take over an Abe mailing list -- I would have just assumed that he sold his soul to the Hicks years ago.
This is actually an important part of the history of The Abe Forum that I left out to keep the post from being too confusing. My understanding is that Gordon started a group called The Abe List (which still exists) in the 90s, which is what led to him being asked to moderate the forum on Abraham Hicks' official site.
The conversation you link to is actually a very illuminating dialogue between Gordon and "Abraham" that I recommend everyone take a look at. Prior to the conversation, it's clear that there was some sort of confrontation between Esther and Gordon, regarding The Abe list, and "Abraham" helped things smooth things over.
That said, I do feel a measure of compassion for Dave G., knowing from experience that some of the most extravagantly wealthy New-Wage hucksters are, to put it charitably, not generous when it comes to paying for creative or administrative services.
Agreed. I actually think one of Jerry and Esther's monster bus trips has cost them more in gas than they have ever had to give to Gordon.
. But sometimes I wonder if we’re doing little more than helping them hone their marketing copy. If so, they’re getting hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of marketing consultation gratis.
I think this is absolutely the case. We give them a way of refining their arguments and justifications.
Expect more Photoshopping and blogging from this corner soon. :-)
It will be the highly anticipated Abe-Hicks follow-up to your amazing pic of Esther.
Thanks for commenting. Always nice to get your perspective.
Cosmic Connie said...
ReplyDeletenot generous when it comes to paying for creative or administrative services. They'll gladly throw small fortunes at the providers of luxury consumer products that clearly show the world how "successful" they are. They don't mind flashing their leased Rolls-Royces or their McMansions
~
Here is a link to the Hicks estate in Del Mar...
http://g.co/maps/7sm9j
Here is a snapshot. The large brown roof is the Hicks abode. The adjacent gray roofed abode Jerry purchased in 2009.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/hicksdelmarestate.jpg/
cont...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.californiahomedesign.com/vendor/snaidero-bay-area
"We have the wonderful good fortune of having spectacular Snaidero kitchens, designed and installed by Michael Glasser, in both our California and Texas homes.
~
Once Michael finished the design, our cabinets were manufactured in Italy, carefully packed into shipping crates, shipped across the ocean, and sat in our Texas warehouse for over a year before they were installed.
Jerry & Esther Hicks, Del Mar, CA and Boerne, TX
"If you look at the screenshots below, you will see that Jerry and Esther are even listed as registrants for domains (abraham-hicks.net and abraham-hicks.org) that link to Gordon's Abraham Hicks fansite, which in turn links to The Abe Forum."
ReplyDeleteJust to play devil's advocate for those who don't have websites or don't know much about domain registration, a person can register a list of domain names, and those domain names could be given to somebody else to run a website.
Case in point, I've bought a domain name for my sister as a gift, and I also bought a domain name for a nephew. I registered both domains so if you do a whois on those 2 domains, my information appears.
Somebody might come along (like Kyra :P), look at that info and say, see, these two websites are sponsored by thinkingStraight because how can they be coincidentally registered by him?
I would then say, well yea, I bought the domains, but whatever my sister and nephew post there, have nothing to do with my views, nor do I post content on there, or monitor whatever is posted.
Furthermore they can look where the sites are hosted, and since they are also hosted on my account, they will incriminate me and say, well look, not only did he register the domains, but he also runs those 2 sites on his hosted account, therefore he must be associated with the content, and those 2 people are probably getting a cut from him.
And obviously that is not the case at all. Sure, I registered and host the domains, but I don't care what's being posted on them.
And that's just to be fair to those readers who don't know much about domain registrations and web hosting.
However, from the evidence you have shown on this post, I'm inclined to believe that this David Gordon dude is definitely somehow compensated by his work with the Hicks. I'm not naive enough to believe his name appears on those other sites because of his good will and charity work. Please!
Hey thinkingStraight,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
I see where you're coming from, but I think we're talking about different things with you, your sister, and nephew and this. Here, we have the owners of a company buying domains for someone who uses those domains to endorse that company (without acknowledging any affiliation). If your sister and nephew do the same thing (endorse your company without acknowledging the affiliation), then I would say that is equally problematic, but I'm assuming that's not the case. So while I agree that there is nothing naturally suspicious about a person gifting a domain to someone, I would see something suspicious in say...Walmart..."gifting" domains to the owner of ILoveWalmart.com (especially if the owner of aforementioned fictitious site claimed no affiliation with Walmart).
Also, I want to add that the links are not so much to show that Gordon is "getting a cut" as much as to show that there is an undisclosed relationship between Abraham Hicks Publications and Gordon.
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way affiliated with Walmart, though I have shopped there on occasion.
And the only point to my comment is for those that aren't aware of how domain registratin/hosting works, because there are cases out there where someone registers the domain for somebody else.
ReplyDeleteThat could be a possibility (1 in a trillion), but again, I don't think that's the case here.
And I do get your point of the undisclosed relationship, and I was just emphasizing the fact that personally, I don't believe this guy is doing it for free. Just my two cents there.
Anyway, congratulations on your detective work. I'm surprised the Hicks didn't use private whois for their domains. Then again, that's an extra buck they aren't willing to spend. :P
Hey thinkinStraight,
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised the Hicks didn't use private whois for their domains. Then again, that's an extra buck they aren't willing to spend. :P
Lol. Very true.
And thank you for the clarity on domain registrations.
Did someone say my name?
ReplyDeleteHi Kyra, I just wanted to let you know that this blog is helping me a lot. Is it possible to write you in private?
ReplyDeleteHey J.,
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear the blog is helping. You can email me at abrahamhicksfraud (at) gmail (dot) com.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
ThinkingStraight, Thank you so much for your perspective and your added information. I am one of those people who knows very little, (enuff to fill a pinhead....if that), about domains, registering one, etc. I find all of this informative and entertaining, (not meaning to be insulting or disrespectful in any way). There's so much dialogue and the perspectives shared here are insightful, helpful and "food for thought". I embraced the teachings of Ernest Holmes some time ago. Ernest Holmes always encouraged those who read his writings and embraced his thoughts to always be open from the top as well as the willingness to question everything, (including his writings/teachings). His perspective has encouraged my natural instinct to question everything. I totally follow Holmes' trend of thought. I believe in possibilities and I always will, thus I remain open from the top. Yet, I still question everything when I feel the need to do so. I enjoy this blog very much. As I've shared with Kyra in a recent comment, I find this blog informative but even more so.....very, very entertaining. I love the opinions, the research and the various perspectives. Learning is FUN!!! LOL heartily! Thanks Kyra and everyone who comes here and shares. I learn more from those with differing opinions than from those who always agree. Have an amazing day all~~~
ReplyDeleteComment to Tina.....I have not followed the Hicks that much and just ran across them this past summer. I also am not familiar with the forum in question, (and really have little interest in it). I am however, confused about a statement you shared about a "Leslie and her father being the first "Black Billionaire" in this country.
ReplyDeleteYou said: " I could never quite understand Leslie's connection. She doesn't need the money. Her father was the first black billionnaire, yes, billionnaire, in this country, and when he passed away years ago, left her very well off."
Unless "Leslie's" father is Robert L. Johnson, previous owner of BET (which he sold to Viacom in 2000 for 3 billion), and first African American to wholly own a professional sports team and whose only recorded children are a daughter named Paige and a son named Brett, your info might be incorrect and you may want to check your sources. You may have knowledge that I am not aware of, (and everything's possible). All records seem to point to
Robert Louis Johnson as the 1st African-American self-made billionaire in America. There is no record naming a "Leslie" as his daughter.
Hey Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteUnless "Leslie's" father is Robert L. Johnson, previous owner of BET (which he sold to Viacom in 2000 for 3 billion), and first African American to wholly own a professional sports team and whose only recorded children are a daughter named Paige and a son named Brett, your info might be incorrect and you may want to check your sources.
I think Tina was referring to Reginald F. Lewis, Leslie's father. Lewis is sometimes credited as the "first black billionaire," but I think that is a misinterpretation of a quote about him being the first African American to create a billion dollar company.
Thanks Kyra!
ReplyDeleteFirst for posting my comments and second information I had forgotten. You're so correct.
As an African American, I'm always interested in learning information about our history, (all people), but especially African American history because I am African American and there is so much about ourselves we don't know.
Yes I remember, Reginald Lewis started Beatrice Foods and wrote a fantastic book which I thoroughly enjoyed, "Why Should White Guys Have All the Fun". This man was brilliant and AMAZING! There has been so much more, in print, about Robert L. Johnson. I know Forbes listed Lewis as having a net worth of 400 million in 92 and he passed in 93. He was a brilliant man (did I say that already? LOL!) His achievements are nothing less than remarkable. I'd forgotten about Reginald Lewis because it's been so long since I've heard anything said about him or seen anything in print about him. Thank you for reminding me about a fascinating human being who should never be forgotten. His daughters should be extremely proud of him and the legacy he left.
Thank you Kyra for clearing that up.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I was, indeed, speaking of Reginald L. Lewis, an amazing man with an amazing story.
My mention of Leslie, and her moderating the Abe Forum, was in the collection of the donations from the patrons of the forum. Leslie seems to truly believe the teachings of Abraham and has certainly padded the Hicks's bank account through seminars and cruises. With that being said, Leslie seems a wonderful person who, for many reasons only she knows, is wrapped tightly in these teachings.
I find that most people on the forum are either looking to attract a relationship or money, money probably being #1, but relationship is a close second. A lot of posts I read on the forum are people who are down and out, can't pay their basic need bills, strapped for cash, yet continuing to use their last dime, so to speak, to buy a Hicks's book, a video seminar, or actually going to a seminar in person (all when posting they are soon to be evicted for not paying their rent). They are willing to spend their last bit of money on anything Hicks's related because they think "I just need one more piece of information and then all my abundance will come to me, this might be it, this might be the final piece of the puzzle I need." Unfortunately, reaching their goal through the Hicks's "scam," for lack of a better word is always elusive, dependent on the new book, the next seminar, the next great recylcled idea that the Hicks, or now Hick and Company come up with.
Being a moderator of the forum, Leslie is privy to a portion of the contributions. There is always a reminder to donate. I have seen people with seemingly no money donating even 10.00, and Leslie thanking them. What I see from my perspective is a wealthy person taking the last bit of money from someone who cannot afford to give, but is so appreciative of the forum that they do, and it is justified because she is a vibrational match to receiving money. This is not always the case, of course, but even if it happens one time, I say shame on anyone in a place of wealth to take from someone who is down and out, and that goes for the Hicks also.
In defense of Leslie, I do think she believes these teachings to the core and adores the Hicks beyond words. She is taking the money from forum members whether or not they can afford to really donate because of her beliefs in the teachins.
However, my perception of the Hicks is different. I believe they are scam artists and would take the last nickel from a can of a homeless woman on a street corner if she handed it to them in exchange for some of Esther's so-called infinite wisdon, knowing full well that they are scamming her.
As someone said in the Copyright blog comments: (Paraphrasing) Abraham Hicks is not synonymous with the law of attraction. One can think the Hicks are scam artists and still believe in the law of attraction. Contrary to their official website, it did not all begin there.
Just my perspective, of course.
Hey again Tina,
ReplyDeleteIn defense of Leslie, I do think she believes these teachings to the core and adores the Hicks beyond words. She is taking the money from forum members whether or not they can afford to really donate because of her beliefs in the teachins.
However, my perception of the Hicks is different. I believe they are scam artists and would take the last nickel from a can of a homeless woman on a street corner if she handed it to them in exchange for some of Esther's so-called infinite wisdon, knowing full well that they are scamming her.
Piggybacking off what you said, I wanted to add that, in defense of the forum members (including Leslie), I think the great majority of them are sincere in their belief in Abraham.
I agree, the forum members in my post were a given. I can't think of any member who has any other motivation for posting other than that hey believe these teachings to be true or they so very much want them to be true. In some cases of reading it is extremely sad.
ReplyDeleteI also wonder, as an after thought, why the moderators who follow the teachings think it is okay to push against and control other's postings instead aligning. As for David, I think he enjoys the power and attention from those on the forum who gush there appreciation of King David (an actual nickname I have seen). It may be that he originally started a forum as a labor of love, but that all changed when he signed on the dotted line and he joined forces, so to speak with the Hicksters.
Tina, to me it is a funny thing about some people who have always had money. It sounds as if Leslie has always had money. I worked a survival job many years ago posted by Actors' Equity. One of the women I worked with, who was indeed an actress, was only working because she accidently dipped into the capital of her trust fund and was paying it back. She had a right to that job, as an out of work actress and all, but there were plenty of other actors who needed money for rent and food who would have been very glad to have that job too. ( it paid quite well) The job was straiting up an accounting mess suffered by a private hospital. I found workman's comp bills which were never sent out and the hospital got a lot of money from them. She then went after medicare patients, talking them into paying five or ten dollars a month, and just couldn't understand why I thought she should focus on something else because that five or ten dollars may be part of the elderly people's food money or something else important. There was such a lot of things to do and a time limit for the job to end. We were allowed to choose what we worked on. I was hoping we would never get to the elderly poor and it would be written off and they wouldn't have to be bothered. And the medicare patients were, for the most part, so sweet and honorable and so worried about finding out they owed money. It broke my heart. This actress was a very nice person, but she never in her life had to worry about money for food or rent. She thought these old people would be glad to pay up. I think it is great for money to never be an issue, but the experience of sometimes not having money gives you the great blessing of compassion. And here is the deal, all those people giving their last hopeful cent are never going to later admit it didn't work, because it feels so shameful, I know first hand. I always blamed myself, Alway. And would never dare talk about it. So Leslie, who probably has never been poor, believes some one's last 10 dollars is going to rake the person in millions. And no one tells her any different. I never spent my last cent on Abraham, but boy this summer I spent far more than I meant to with the live seminars. And I did it, can't blame anyone else. And just as you say Tina, I kept thinking of getting that last missing piece, it was always just out of reach. It was so easy to watch it at home, just a little click and more money gone forever. But never quite getting that little missing piece and as you mentioned in an earlier comment, I did think I was the only one flunking Abraham when my golden ships didn't come in. So who is going to break the news to Leslie?
DeleteThanks Tina!
ReplyDeleteHave a beautiful day~~~
Nice post, Kyra! I hadn't seen it until now.
ReplyDeleteI'm feeling a little creeped out by this behind-the-scenes stuff, it takes awhile to digest sometimes. The Abe Forum itself has certainly played an "interesting" role in my Abraham experience.
Oops, also meant to say, All the wealthy people I know, though they never have been with out money, seem to understand what it must be like to not have money and are usually very kind. Also, even though I never commented on the forum, I have read a bit of the comments and I thought when the mods came on "Wow, I sure wouldn't like anyone telling me how to interpret Abe, who died and made them God" Well, I guess Jerry
ReplyDeleteI had one experience with Leslie on the forum. Cking it out as a new aber I stumbled on Jody giving a who's who per times in the hotseat. She was gushing over David G coming in second to Scott (former admin). Leslie listed her romps in the seat (more than just a few). I asked if it is such a rush and so much is gained why not keep your hands down and let some of the newbies have a chance. I made some totally off the wall remark I had heard via abe, sharing is caring. Leslie replied cause it just feels good, she likes feeling good...end of story. She's pretty much a carbon copy of Ester's narcissistic personality imho. Taking donations from abers who have 'less than' is just not good manners. Analyzing her motives or why she has bad manners...bleh. She's a narcissist that 's all.'
Delete"Narcissism, in lay terms, basically means that a person is totally absorbed in self. "
btw...with Ester's debut after Jerry joined the abe crew Scott was the first and last on the hotseat. Abe picks ppl by vibration...yeah right.
Exactly Clarity. It seems funny that those who are continually in the hot seat are those who aren't asking the "tough" questions or calling Esther out. I also suspect those who are in the hot seat who aren't part of the "in-crowd," are steered to Esther in some fashion as being a good hot-seater. I am certain people are at the seminars speaking to others and getting a grasp on who is a gung-ho Aber and will play nice (and even cutesy on some occasions) from the hot seat. It makes for better recording sessions.
ReplyDelete___________
Back to Leslie for a moment. She wrote this in a post, and I had to read it twice. She is telling those down and out folks, or those who simply want to pay off bills, go on vacations, or what have you, that it is so simple to manifest money. Hell, she did it and all she had to do was breathe. This post struck me as odd. Guess we should have hones our manifestation skills before we arrived, because once we were a fetus, it was already too late to be born into a rich family.
Leslie: "Because I have experienced the EASE of money flowing into my life: all I needed to do to make money was be born and keep breathing!
And because I know how easy it is, I wanted my dear friends to feel that ease, too."
If Leslie gives me a couple of million dollars, I promise I can take it from there :P Actually,I brought myself from a "barely making ends meet" childhood and living on the streets for two years during adolescence to a lifestyle filled with grace and joy... not because I'm money-wealthy (until Leslie hands over the cash; >) but because I learned and grew through every experience and evolved in how I make my daily decisions and choices.
DeleteOn the topic of hotseats... For many of the 14 years I attended Abraham workshops and cruises, I got called into the hotseat. I am in several DVDs and lots of workshop recordings. Then it stopped. I don't know if it was because the last question I asked required too much evaluation from "Abraham" (I asked for a definitive comparison between vortex and vibrational escrow and tapped in, tuned in, and turned on... and it definitely caught "Abraham" off guard; they stuttered around for a minute or two and the said something general and that was it.)or if other guests complained at how much air time I got (That's possible, too). All I know is that never again was I called to the hotseat - no matter how inwardly aligned I felt. I went from everytime to no-time. It seemed unlikely to be all about me and my vibration... at least to me.
Hey Krya! Thanks for the informal post. I am an ex abraham fan, and I wanted to share with you from my experience I find dangerous about the Abraham teachings, and maybe give you a perspective on why some of the abraham fans on here like to bash you and lash out. I think these teachings are much more complex then simply being more positive and happy.
ReplyDelete1.) Unrealistic/impossible goals. Abraham says all things are possible from growing new limbs to making money by doing nothing. After seeing a video of Abraham talking about a man Esther knew who grew taller by using the seth teachings, I decided I would transform myself into a world famous supermodel in the vortex. I literally thought my DNA would clone itself to match someone else's if I got in the right feeling place. It's embarrassing how delusional I was to think that was actually possible! I also thought I would get rich for doing nothing, date a celebrity, travel all over the world without having to work for any of the cost, and much more. Do you see now why the abers lash out at you? Who would want to go from such fantasies to the dull depths of reality and all of its laws? It was fun to dream so big, but one day I realized it wasn't happening. Would I wait my whole life to get into this "vortex?" So, I slowly, steadily let go of the idea. Now I am much happier, because I know the things I now dream of are actually possible! They are real and achievable things. Now, some people might not take the teachings to such extremes. But that was my experience.
2.) The lack of compassion in the abraham teachings disgusts me! If you are rich, poor, sick, dying, its your fault. I never could understand why abraham says even if your mom dies, your dog dies, your boyfriend hits you, you get raped, its YOUR fault. And not only is it your fault, you shouldn't let the other persons actions make you sad. Sorry, but i am human and I do get sad when bad things happen or other people get hurt. I think thats pretty normal. I remember when the tsunami in japan happened and on one of the youtube abraham videos one of the comments said "who cares about the stupid tsunami? I could care less!" WOW. thats how brainwashed these people are!
2.) narcissistic teachings to the max. Its all about me, the universe LITERALLY revolves around me! me me me! Not how it works.
3.) The teachings are mentally exhausting. who can monitor their thoughts and control them to the extend abraham says is necessary? "everything is 99.9% perfect before manifestation." No wonder no one is successful! These teachings twist the human mind. How is it possible to want something so badly but to have it you can't care at all if you get it? I dont think i've ever heard anyone say "Yeah, I really want that car but I really could care less if i get it."
4.) My final thought- Let's just play a little bit and say that abraham is right, that this is the way the universe intended for us through law of attraction and our guidance system. Well, why are we so darn TERRIBLE at it??? Abraham always says "something about being human, but you tend to do this a lot." Most people in the hot seat sound like they are struggling. Dosen't sound like the universe was set up to well does it? I remember watching an abraham video on youtube and one of the funniest comments I ever read was "seriously was god drunk when the universe was created? why would he make it so comlicated and impossible to follow such laws and teachings??" really gave me a good laugh because it's so true!
Okay, now I am finished. I am a lot happier now that I am free of abraham. And you know whats funny? I am accomplishing much, much more and have a lot nicer things going for me now that I got rid of such sillyness.
Hey Anonymous,
DeleteSorry it's taken me some time to respond. I have been busy with non-Abraham projects. Thanks for the comment. I think you voice a lot of the issues that many have with Abraham and the Law of Attraction (or I should say, more appropriately, how "they" present this Law of Attraction).
Your statement, "I think these teachings are much more complex then simply being more positive and happy" is very true. A lot of times people will say that they can't imagine why I would be bothered by the Hicks' materials when all they do is encourage positive thinking. Clearly, as you point out, they are doing a lot more than just encouraging people to think pleasing thoughts.
Also, you make a good point about your experience with the teachings and attempting to change your very DNA. I have to admit that I believed that I could fly--like full on superhero flying (that the physical laws would cease so that I could get from Los Angeles to China with a run and a jump). I don't think it's odd that someone who believes these sorts of materials would have these sorts of expectations. Abraham makes it all sound very simple. It's as easy to create a castle as it is a button. Get in the vortex. Here's a few easy processes. You can be, do, or have anything you desire. Abraham's claims are anything but humble. Of course, as we saw with Jerry Hicks, he couldn't just pop into the vortex and do a few Abraham processes to regain perfect health.
Okay, now I am finished. I am a lot happier now that I am free of abraham. And you know whats funny? I am accomplishing much, much more and have a lot nicer things going for me now that I got rid of such sillyness.
Glad to hear that things are going so well. I have to say that I had a very similar experience. The moment I set the teachings aside, my life improved dramatically and now I feel better than I ever did with the teachings.
Thanks again for the comment.
Three things that sealed the abe coffin for me.....
Delete1. Ex-Amway. Folks, once a wolf, always a wolf. People who join that shit are motivated and inspired to do one thing and one greedy thing only: MAKE MONEY and ACQUIRE EXCESSIVE SELFISH MATERIAL MEANS. They learn potent emotional exploitation tactics, to falsely 'excite' people about selling and buying their products *fooling* them into thinking they will have incredible success [Gee, sound familiar?] and then they never actually do. Studies show only 4% of all people actually ever sell anything and "make it big" in those disgusting manipulative scams.
2. Esther and Jerry's lavish home and other material goods. If *I* had 10 million dollars I sure as hell wouldn't freaking live there in some big lonely cold mansion with a $400,000.00 custom "modernized" art kitchen... I'd probably surf all day in a rad little beach shack somewhere and give a lot to charity.
These people LIVED, BREATHED, and DIED FOR money, money, more money, and oh yeah, more money.
3. The vibe of Esther's close friends: I was at a recent workshop, and "Barbara" or whatever the f*** her name is [you know, the fat porky blonde always talking about lunch? Pardon me, but if she has been following the Abe Crowd around for 20 years and they were teaching reality-bending Universal Truths, shouldn't she of lost a little weight by now???? Shouldn't Esther have gotten YOUNGER after all these years??? Shouldn't Jerry have still been taking notebooks of bullshit at all the seminars pretending to be learning something instead of rotting under the Earth??? But that's just me ;P) - Anywho, so this Barbaba lady goes on to take my ticket and accidentally snatches my Abraham question along with my registration form, it's a printed typed up single-page document that says "MY QUESTIONS FOR ABRAHAM." in big bold lettering on the top.
This is hard to explain in words so bear with me, basically, she ripped a part of the registration form off as needed and bent over to discard the waste in the trashcan underneath the desk. Her face was hidden behind a laptop, and as she was still bent over seemingly out of view from me for a split second she curiously glanced at the other document, and in immediate (and assumed hidden, although I could still see her) recognition she smirked and rolled her eyes as if to say, "Haha too bad they're not real." Then, when her head is back over the computer in full view of me, her demeanor changes and with the fakest smile I have ever seen she hands me a nametag and my paper back and says, "Enjoy your Science of Deliberate Creation Workshop!!!" I knew in that moment what I had just paid for, and will never pay for again.
DeleteTo those lost and searching for a grasp on reality after waking up to the truth of Abrascam; I'd like to share something quick for you that I've found..
Personally since I quit Abraham (lol sounds like a drug) and erasing all their narcissistic warped-reality b.s. I've actually become healthier, stronger, more sociable / having mucchhh more fun again, and oh yeah, wealthy. Currently pulling 20k monthly. Life is nice when you get to the root of what TRULY WORKS and you 'milk' that.
A few points and I'm outta here:
1. Your Vortex is not real.
Sorry, but it's true. You can go to a rock concert all you want, stare at that guitarist shredding for 6 straight hours firing off unlimited "rockets of desire", go back home and sit in your bedroom smiling feeling dumb & happy 'in your Vortex' petting your cat, but unless you sit down in a "struggle" and practice breaking a sweat for the next nine years, you are NOT going to play as good as him and shred - and I don't care what the subject is.
Successful people dive in constant HARD WORK, and it isn't all chocolate and roses all the time either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Ja_7lwfrg
Smart, inspiring authentically skilled people or anyone who accomplishes great things that bring humanity to tears of awe don't "pet their cats and just let it in"; they bust their ass on a daily basis. If "feeling good" and "lining up" was all it took to become healthy, everyone in America would be walking around jacked & ripped like the Spartans of the Day and billionaires!
Delete2. There is no such thing as "emotional guidance".
This f**cked me up for years. When you're scared of something, you FACE IT, you GO DO IT. No amount of "easing yourself climbing up the emotional scale" is going to do it. The "emotional scale" isn't vertical, it's non-correlative. Meaning, you don't go from fear -> depressed -> anger -> bored -> hope -> joy, I've gone from pure fear to BLISS in a frikkin' second by DOING WHAT I'M AFRAID OF.. like jumping out of an airplane skydiving. There is no "emotional scale" nor is there some mystical larger self "Calling you towards it", you CREATE THAT SELF, now. Through dedication & daily discipline. Hard, hard work.
3. You do create your own reality. I've witnessed first-hand a hypnotist putting a boy under, telling him he had a hot piece of steel and he was going to very briefly touch the boys hand. He finally does it [touched him with just a marker] and the boy screams and cries and we see a large red spot and blister forming on the boys hand. I was in chills from head to foot watching that. The mind is powerful, YES you can manifest things but ABRASCAM is a f**king fraud & a liar trying to get your money and mislead you, their theories of creation BARELY WORK and are lifted from some of the original thinking and mystics of our time, diluted. You want to create your own reality? Go to the source..
If you're wondering where to begin then please check out Neville Goddard. He toured the world and lectured 100% FOR FREE because he was passionate about getting his message out there. He was a living, breathing example of what he taught. He wanted a mansion house, so he put his own theories to the test and MANIFESTED IT OUT OF THIN AIR. He didn't need a dime. He was the real deal. Esther & Jerry aren't - they just want your money and saw opportunity in the Law of Attraction niche.
Wake up.
Anyways, I've used his teachings in my own life and manifested many many things, it truly works and is all you need to create health, wealth, happiness and love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnHKOMrfGWU&feature=related
Thanks again Kyra, I hope everyone appreciates what you're doing as much as I do. Your work should seriously be commended.
@connie: You crack me up lol, I love your blog. That photoshop work made my whole year.. please do more!!
Jack I LOVED your reply...still chuckling.
Deletethanks!
Good lord...and they made her a supermod.
ReplyDeleteNot only is she narcissistic she is an idiot.
Ahnalira it's perfectly obvious what happened. You questioned something about the vortex which means you obviously fell out of it never to return. Vibrational escrow...bringing up the past, just another indication of being OOTV. Don't you realize asking Esterham about things she said 'then' are forbadden??? Then again the old abe said we can discuss anything you want, nothing is off limits. New and improved abe will just kick you out of the hotseat. Since Jer is not around to keep her act updated should be an interesting year as Ester stumbles through the abeways.
ReplyDeleteEster...we will be watching hon. Don't get nervous, don't stammer and stutter. Just relax in the knowing we hang on every word.
All is well...well documented that is.
Never to return. So be it ; >)
DeleteMy partner says there is a subtle, yet profound, difference between choosing questioners by where their "vibration" is or choosing questioners by where Esther's vibration is. I think he's on to something.
I am having a real pleasure in reading all of this. I feel fine to realise their are many people having similar vues on Mrs Hicks as I do. Unfortunately, my english is not so good and not so easy to read. So I will not write too much. I loved all comments here. Laughed a lot too.
DeleteCare
Loved your comments, anonymous Jan 13!
ReplyDeleteFor me, this secret connection between the Abe Forum and Abraham-Hicks puts the forum moderation in a new light. I for one was never that bothered by the fact that it is moderated, although I know many are and were, and I can see why. I like a moderated forum, and focusing on Abraham teachings made sense to me. AND, I felt that if David Gordon wanted a specific focus for this forum of his, then that was his choice. Sure, at times I felt like moderating was mostly "pushing against" but for the most part, I was fine with it.
And while I imagine it actually is in some sense a labor of love for David G., the fact that there is a HIDDEN connection to Abraham-Hicks is troublesome to me.
This explains so much!
Hey Mariah,
DeleteI agree. When I first came across the forum, I didn't see much wrong with Gordon moderating (or at least with the forum being moderated). What ended up bothering me was the sorts of posts that were being censored. I could understand if they had been things that were offensive or even completely unrelated to the teachings, but the sort of censorship that was going on seemed to be a desperate effort on the moderators' parts to make the forum something very specific. It didn't seem to fit with the Law of Allowing. That sort of "pushing against" that you mention is what kept me away from the forum more than anything else.
And while I imagine it actually is in some sense a labor of love for David G., the fact that there is a HIDDEN connection to Abraham-Hicks is troublesome to me.
I think I might have mentioned this somewhere else in the comments, but I do believe that Gordon's Abraham fanpages began as labors of love. I think it wasn't until around 2007 that the lines between Abraham Hicks Publications and Gordon fanpages began to blur.
Absolutely love it!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for this blog, Kyra. I just unsubscribed from ALL abraham hicks email subscriptions and they have a text box for us to write about why we are unsubscribing.
I told them that it was because AH was a scam.
Hey looptheloop,
DeleteThanks for the comment.
I told them that it was because AH was a scam.
That sounds hilarious! I wish I could have done something that clever.
I do remember 2 clips on YT that contradicted each other:
ReplyDeleteOne where Ester (and I am misspelling it on purpose) said that 'they' do not laugh, and another where Ester was clearly laughing at the end of the seminar.
I will let you know if I stumble upon it.
Also:
I think in the book Ask and It Is Given, Sheila said "we are told your guide name will be given to you through a clairvoyant experience."
Later on that "introduction to Abraham" cd (the free one they pass out during workshops), it changes to "we are told your guide will be given to you through a CLAIRAUDIENT experience."
Hey looptheloop,
DeleteThanks for the info. Let me know if you find the laughing clips. Regarding clairaudient, it's actually the reverse: Ask and it Is Given says clairaudient and the Introductory CD says clairvoyant. I think she's almost said clairvoyant in another interview and corrected herself with clairaudient. It's interesting, but I don't think it points to or away from the veracity of Esther's claim to be channeling Abraham.
Still hoping someone with time and money on their hands will find a way to the hotseat and "allow" (LOL) some pointed questions about to come forth.
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is, most likely it would be their biggest seller, "post event" but they'd have to deep six it!
Hey Anonymous,
DeleteI agree that it would be quite show! Who knows. Maybe tomorrow will be the big day, but I doubt it. Though Esther does not plant people in the hotseat, she certainly does play favorites (particularly with people she knows).
One more thing while you're here, Marc. Would you care to read and comment on the coverup of Ari's suicide? Since August of 2009, I have been wondering why her name was reduced to guest from member status so quickly upon the moderators, administrator, and more likely than not Jerry and Esther (who have a big hand in that forum and how it represents them) hearing the news of a popular forum member committing suicide. And while you are at it, could you tell me why her last post on 08/07/2009 was removed? This would have been the last post she made before attending her son's wedding on 08/08/2009. There had to be something in that post that caused the moderators to scramble to removed it so quickly from the forum.
ReplyDeleteAlso, could you tell me why there wasn't a Love For Ari thread? I would have even settled for an Appreciation for Ari thread. Ari gave and gave to that forum trying to help others, all the while dealing with her own pain, while continuing to be told by Jody et al that all she needed to do was align and her escrow would come flowing to her. She tried and tried and never quite got it right. Why is it she never got it right? Because Esther's eachings are set up that way. If only Ari had known the new truth as told by Esther. All that time she tried to focus and align to get the things that were in her escrow, it turned out to be a dirty little trick, because now Esther has changed the rule to " The process IS the Reward..." San Diego 1/21/12" Well, damn! To quote Esther, "isn't life just a kick in the pants."
http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2012/01/abrascam-followers-may-fall-but-snow.html
To quote Esther, "isn't life just a kick in the pants."
DeleteIt sure is when one follows the not-so-infinitely intelligent teachings of Esther Weaver Hick(son).
ROFL. My health got WORSE, my relationships AND my bank account all PLUMMETED after religiously following the Abe teachings. After I quit, and came back to reality, things got A LOT brighter..
DeleteTo me, the key point of this article isn't about the style used to moderate the forum. The key point is this: The Abeforum states it is in no way affiliated with Abraham-Hicks Publications, and Kyra proves - with documentation - that the administration of the Abeforum is subsidized by Abraham-Hicks Publications.
ReplyDeleteNo amount of abstract discussion on style accounts for this disparity between the claim and the reality. It's such a simple action to resolve - acknowledge on the Abeforum that Abraham-Hicks Publications subsidizes the administration of the forum. Why not do that? Would it upset Esther if her involvement were made known? What other reason could there be for misrepresenting the truth?
Hey again Ahnalira,
DeleteThank you for restating the original meaning of this post. Sometimes (in fact many times), I feel like the heart of the posts are lost in the comments.
Hi Marc,
ReplyDelete"There have been attempts by Esther, by you, by Ahnalira, by other people who participate on this blog, by our members, by me, by David and the other Mods, as well. Those attempts meet with varying levels of success."
To clarify, as a representative of AHP, I was asked to contact you and request the removal the trade-marked name Abraham-Hicks from the Abeforum. (Previously to that, I was asked by AHP to contact David on multiple occasions and request he remove the trademarked name Abraham-Hicks from the title of his Yahoo list.) I sent you one message in January of 2010 to make that request and had no further dialogue with you about that or any other subject until you initiated an email conversation with me today were we both shared our personal opinions on several topics. To say that I, Ahnalira, attempted in any way to control the Abeforum is, to me, an inaccurate statement of events. I have never posted there, I have only gone there to read at the request of Jerry and Esther when I worked with the AHP organization, and I have no interest in controlling anything. It is my intention only to be forthright and open about my experience.
Just to clarify.
Best regards,
Ahnalira
Kyra - you should really make little snippets of Esther's slip-ups. They're VERY telling and literally all the proof one needs.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorites is when some lady asks about Holosync... If I remember correctly, Esther just stammers some BS and says "tell us more" and then goes on blabbing about the typical "lining up" schtick, which is hilarious because it literally has NOTHING TO DO with holosync. The lady gets out of the hotseat with a perplexed "Uhh... thank you." as everyone applauds.
Seriously the funniest thing I've ever seen - Esther is brilliant at pulling stuff out of her ass when she doesn't know the answer to something..
lololol, hot-seater: "I'd like to ask about OCD."
Esther: "What's that???"
Hey Jack R,
DeleteI actually have been compiling such snippets. I was supposed to be done sooner, but with this post and some projects that I'm working on in my own life, I've been a little too busy to finish it. But I plan on getting one up.
Knocking a dead guy and his widow. Wow. That's right up there with abusing puppies. Good going. Real bright.
ReplyDeletePeople don't automatically become perfect or beyond any criticism when they die or suffer bereavement. If someone's philosophy or behaviour is deserving of scrutiny when they're alive, that's still the case when they're dead - especially when they're putting themselves out in public and claiming to be the voice of infinite intelligence.
DeleteAnd no, pointing out the holes in the AH show is in no way on a par with animal abuse (are you serious?!)
[Interesting blog Kyra - this is my first comment, but I've been reading for a while :)]
Hey Jennifer Walters,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
I thought it was cats...
Well, Jerry shouldn't be dead at all according to the teachings of Abraham-Hicks. He should have been able to release any resistance and then any disease would have had to leave his body in a few days or so. And anyway, Abraham always knocks death and dead people herself, I mean themselves, calling it croaking and telling grieving widows or widowers that they don't miss the dead one, only how the dead one them put in the vortex, I mean the grid. And ester, she has no time to mourn even if the teachings of Abraham allowed it, no she doesn't even get to be a real widow, for jerry is always bugging her from the great beyond and as Abraham says there is no separation. Perhaps ester may be grinding her teeth at that one. No peace for the...for those connected to infinite intelligence...and old ball and chain Jerry. Poor old gal ester, I do have sympathy for her. I hope her improv. skills are up to carrying the double load of the Jerry and Abraham connection now.
ReplyDeletebitter bitter people.......waa waa waa
ReplyDeletebitter bitter people.......waa waa waa
ReplyDeleteAnd you seem just delightful...
Sooo much Drama.
ReplyDeleteI found this blog because I was definitely feeling weird when I just discovered Abraham was a spirit that Esther was channeling through from a DVD that was sent to me. I didn't know it was called channeling but the more I read the more I questioned...
I googled and found you through another blog...
But I admit, I like Esther's message and the idea of the Law of Attraction. What comes around goes around right? Karma? I've definitely seen it at work in my life before I knew about this stuff..
But everything I've ever run across in this world to believe in can be disputed especially if someone is making money on it or it threatens the livelihood of experts...
It could be a church, any kind of politician (they're all crooks), some far out ancient text or underwater pyramid...it doesn't matter. it could all be disputed because it is of man and someone has something to lose or gain. We are so impure...
But still it comes down to what do you believe in?
Do you need to have something to believe in to be absolutely correct 100% for the sake of satisfying your inner desire to be perfectly RIGHT so you are not questioned in some heated debate or so your conscious can be satisfied? That must be the safest way to be right?
Its like a jury forced to adhere to specific instructions on how to judge a case....
Its either absolutely perfect or its all wrong.
Well I appreciate what your doing adding a few grains of salt to my spoon but I'll take what I want from Jerry Esther and...*sigh* Abraham and discard the rest.
But congratulations on looking cool and scoring points. I hope tearing down someone who's a fraud does something for you...
Hey Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
But everything I've ever run across in this world to believe in can be disputed especially if someone is making money on it or it threatens the livelihood of experts...
I certainly agree that everything can be disputed. However, I think I'd have a hard time finding rational-thinking people arguing that gravity and heliocentrism don't exist. My point being: its easier to argue against things that have no evidence in their favor than those things that have an abundance of evidence in their favor.
Its either absolutely perfect or its all wrong.
This is simply not the case. I believe in science. Science is not perfect. It is forever evolving and forever being revised. Also, I do not believe that the world works in such extremes as things either being entirely right or entirely wrong. Countless of times, there have been scientists who have developed wonderful ideas who were right on some things and wrong about others.
Well I appreciate what your doing adding a few grains of salt to my spoon but I'll take what I want from Jerry Esther and...*sigh* Abraham and discard the rest.
I certainly have never suggested that I am against this. My whole point is to encourage people who want to use the materials to be discerning.
But congratulations on looking cool and scoring points. I hope tearing down someone who's a fraud does something for you...
Lol. Yes, cause as you can see in the comments I get, the majority finds me to be "cool."
But Mom, all the cool kids have an Abe blog. Why can't I?
Delete@Anonymous Mar 12, 2012 08:52 PM
DeleteAre you so insecure that you need someone who claims to know The Secrets of the Universe and speaks for GOD to tell you what to do with your life? Can't you make decisions on your own? Why are you so threatened by anyone who questions Esther's self-proclaimed authority as the channel for...*Sigh* The Source of All Being?
(see, I can do it too!)
I speak for God/The Source of the Universe, but cut me some slack, I'm only human! Oh, wait...
I understand, they flatter your ego by telling you that you can be like a God yourself, that you can be a multi-millionaire, never get sick, have the Universe as your own personal catalog, I mean, how cool is that?
If you think all politicians are crooks, the guru/god scene is even worse. But some people need their delusions.
Have to say I find the concept of "donations" for a website ostensibly dedicated to the topic of creating abundance in whatever form ironic in the extreme.
ReplyDeleteWhy the hell do you need donations to run a message board anyway? Who asked you to be so super controlling that it requires the efforts of a team of people to edit every participant's thoughts to an acceptable level of MUSH?
Who the F** asked you to appoint yourselves judicators of what is fit for consumption by the eager Aber anxious to discuss their latest vortextual experiences?
Either make it free with reasonable moderation. Like eliminating soliciting ads and preventing flame wars, that kind of stuff OR make it a pay per play website but donations??
Donations are for charity and it appears reading here of the callousness with which form members personal tragedies are dismissed on this board it is far far from a charitious enterprise.
I think one's mind has to be systematically diminished and conditioned to a brainwashed level of compromise where every utterance on discussion board is moderated,PM'd and otherwise edited and super controlled by creatures called "super moderators"
These Super Moderators, Beings without form, who watch and observe with hawk like intensity any infraction or digression from the agenda of making all things written palatable to the greatest number of Abraham Hicks consumers.
But who is really being consumed here? I think it is the free will and native intelligence of all who participate in good faith in this "forum" which isn't a forum at all because IDEAS ARE NOT EXCHANGED THEY ARE ONLY REINFORCED, thus making it just a bit of hopelss propaganda.
Marc, the gentleman writing here I believe the doubts are circling your brain like vultures waiting to consume a dead carcas of these half assed beliefs. I think you are a smart guy and you are questioning and that is why you showed up on a web site like this. Take leave man, nothing makes your life more miserable than defending or "non-defending" as the case may be the utterly indefensable.
Some Fields Required
Some Fields Required,
ReplyDeleteGood to see you again. I wondered where Life had taken you since our dialogue. Happy to see you continuing to take thought to new places :)
Hello Ahnalira,
DeleteThanks. I find it extremely odd that these super moderators feel the need to control how other people express their thoughts and feelings about AH in order to make themselves [the super moderators] "feel better"
Seems at odds with the Abraham teachings of not asking others to change so that you can be comfortable and feel better.
To address one of the anaolgies Marc used regarding how they justify their controlling behavior, he likened it to a board dedicated to discussing Chess. He pointed out that if you start talking about another game you would be moderated out of existence or something to that effect.
However he fails to realize that the Abe Forum seems intent on controlling not only WHAT people discuss but HOW they discuss it.
And the guy running it is drawing a salary from Esther? For what??? No free lunch in the LOA world, she is getting something for her buck. The whole set up is very uninspiring and dissapointing.
Some Fields Required
"Therefore, Einstein is a sham and we shouldn't talk about QM as Einstein described it." Wait a second. Does. Not. Follow.
ReplyDeleteAgain, even though everything you say is arguably true, it's really not relevant to my understanding of QM, it doesn't affect how we're each able to apply what QM means and to utilize it to our benefit, nor does the fact that there are outcomes we don't like make much of a difference. It's really not relevant. All that stuff is really a distraction.”
Hey Marc,
I don’t know if you still read here but a few comments:
You wrote:
“It's really not relevant. All that stuff is really a distraction.”
A distraction to YOU perhaps but to someone else it might be an interesting and informative dimension to a discussion of Quantum Mechanics. Do you see how this is just a shallow rationale for attempting to exert a level of control over a conversation that most people wouldn’t allow in day to day interaction.
Marc, who are you to decide what aspect of the “facts” is “relevant” or a “distraction” I understand moderating for the purpose of staying on topic but such a discussion as you described IS ON TOPIC the moderators of this “forum” are clearly kidding themselves about what the real agenda is here. Protecting and advancing the Abraham Hicks bottom line: selling Esther and Abraham and controlling what is said about the brand. Period.
Marc, you might not THINK this is what the agenda is but I promise you this is definitely the agenda of the guy who cashes Esther’s checks every month. No doubt.
A frank honest discussion of Jerry and Esther Hicks that can be moderated to the extent that it sticks to facts and demands that posters clearly label opinions AS opinions is not at all “off topic” and you
And this “Jody” character whom I realize you have no responsibility issuing this missive:
”The reason I'm hesitant to allow a discussion of Ari is that she was sort of anonymous here - if she was your mother, then of course I would allow you to discuss your use of the Abraham teachings while "dealing with" (for lack of better phrase) her death. But just the fact that she was a forum member doesn't seem a "good reason" for us to get into a discussion of it. Does this make sense? “
Look at the language “allow a discussion” and “ I would allow you to discuss” not to mention the coy and bullshit last phrase “Does this make sense” Like Jody cares whether or not it makes sense or is really open for debate on this issue.
This kind of controlling behavior is antithetical to EVERYTHING that is taught by Abraham. Wouldn’t it be better, if the moderators of the forum cannot vibrate their way to a version of a discussion board they would like to simply step down and gather their vibrational ducks in a row rather than trying to micromanage people’s discussions about real things like death life and metaphysics?
Required Fields.
Hey Marc,
ReplyDeleteI don’t know if you still read here but a few comments:
You wrote:
“It's really not relevant. All that stuff is really a distraction.”
A distraction to YOU perhaps but to someone else it might be an interesting and informative dimension to a discussion of Quantum Mechanics. Do you see how this is just a shallow rationale for attempting to exert a level of control over a conversation that most people wouldn’t allow in day to day interaction.
Marc, who are you to decide what aspect of the “facts” is “relevant” or a “distraction” I understand moderating for the purpose of staying on topic but such a discussion as you described IS ON TOPIC the moderators of his “forum” are clearly kidding themselves about what the real agenda is here. Protecting and advancing the Abraham Hicks bottom line: selling Esther and Abraham and controlling what is said about the brand. Period.
Marc, you might not THINK this is what the agenda is but I promise you this is definitely the agenda of the guy who cashes Esther’s checks every month. No doubt.
A frank honest discussion of Jerry and Esther Hicks that can be moderated to the extent that it sticks to facts and demands that posters clearly label opinions AS opinions is not at all “off topic”
And this “Jody” character [whom I realize you have no responsibility for] issuing this missive from this self appointed Empress of appropriate:
”The reason I'm hesitant to allow a discussion of Ari is that she was sort of anonymous here - if she was your mother, then of course I would allow you to discuss your use of the Abraham teachings while "dealing with" (for lack of better phrase) her death. But just the fact that she was a forum member doesn't seem a "good reason" for us to get into a discussion of it. Does this make sense? “
Look at the language “allow a discussion” and “ I would allow you to discuss” not to mention the coy and bullshit last phrase “Does this make sense”
Like Jody cares whether or not it makes sense or is really open for debate on this issue. Like this is really a question she expects an answer to. Arrogance in the extreme. AND wholly UNEARNED arrogance I might add.
This kind of controlling behavior is antithetical to EVERYTHING that is taught by Abraham. Wouldn’t it be better, if, seeing as the moderators of the forum cannot vibrate their way to a version of a discussion board they would like to simply step down and gather their vibrational ducks in a row rather than trying to micromanage people’s discussions about real things like death life and metaphysics?
All to adjust "reality" to make themselves more comfortable and dare I say "on target"
It goes without saying that some of the greatest advances human kind has enjoyed have happened as the result of "wandering off topic"
Required Fields.
One of the reasons I left the yahoo group 5 years ago absolutely TOO restrictive!!! And now reading this well more and more comes to the light comes to the light.
ReplyDeleteOh it's not just the heavy topics they moderate. If a mod post something that inaccurately represents the preachings and a rebuttle points that out not uncommon to see the post/thread disappear.
ReplyDeleteSome Fields...always enjoy your insightful comments~and Hi Cherub, you're getting around today *wave*
I was on a different message board than the one discussed here and left after a week or so. I questioned why Jerry didn't heal himself, as Abe always says is so possible, and felt like they were coming out of my computer with torches and a stake for my heart!!
ReplyDeleteHey Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteDon't worry. You're not the only one ; ).
Hey Kyra~thought you might like to know one of your pics of Ester made it's way to the forum. Even the faithful are reading here :)
ReplyDeleteOpps~sry Kyra, looks like the ever watchful admins discovered the infiltration. No worries, we have a screen shot...your claim to fame *grin*
ReplyDeleteHi Kyra,
ReplyDeleteI keep coming back here again and again, but no new blog entries :-(
What has happened? Did the Hicks company sue you? :-(
I hope there will be new blogs, I am looking forward to them!
Very best wishes
M.
Hey M.,
ReplyDeleteAHP is not suing me. I've just been really lazy, and I don't have anything new to report about Esther or her company. If I do get wind of something, I'll be sure to post about it.
hey krya I was hoping maybe you could help me understand why you have devoted so much time and effort towards Abraham. I get that you don't believe what she says and think she's a phony. Her words don't resinate with you and you can find contradictions so your not a fan or follower I get that part. But you have spent so much time to debunk and bring her down....seams futile. I was raised christian and every sunday I read the bible and never believed in a single story. I felt like every pastor was a liar or a fraud, but I never created a website with multiple examples on why christianity does not make sense. I didn't believe in christianity so I never bothered with it. I think thats what most people do when they find something they don't believe they say "thats bullshit" and move on with life. But your different I'm just trying to understand why. I do not intend for this to be rude I'm just hoping you can give me some insight.
ReplyDeleteHey Anonymous,
DeleteThanks for the comment. And I don't think it's a rude question at all.
I started the blog after seeing the contradictions and bogus logic that littered the teachings, and I wanted to reach out to others who were either where I was at or who were just starting to be skeptical. I have found that it is helpful to those who have been looking for information like this, and so I feel that my efforts have not been all that futile. At the least, it has cut the amount of time that others have had to spend searching for this information on their own and has given them shortcuts so that they may find it for themselves. If you are looking at this from a perspective of me trying to "convert" believers, I would agree that it would be futile. I don't believe that you can convince people who are true believers. However, I believe this information is helpful to those who are already disillusioned or pulling away from the teachings. Regarding the amount of time I have invested in this blog, I have spent far less time on it than I did utilizing the processes of Abraham, and if this information can help someone else, then I am more than willing to invest more.
Thanks again for the comment.
Oh dear Kyra... If only you could see just what a shining example you are of EXACTLY what the teachings of Abraham state. Everything you have focused on has come true. Cult, disillusioned people, strange and seeming ill willed money making, brain washing... Yep it's all there. Now try looking for the many many MANY who've had their lives enriched.... Or not. The choice is yours... As Abraham would say: "chill out a little" xx
ReplyDeleteI have to ask, why are you wasting so much of your time on this. If you do not like it or agree with it, why are you not just putting your attention elsewhere? This is fascinating to me, it takes so much of your time. It's like eating something that you know disagrees with you, but continue to eat it.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you not just put this to bed and the people that get something from it continue to get something and the people that it annoys will continue to be annoyed. But it in the mean time you can put your time and energy into something that uplifts you.
Wow Kyra, get a life. You're to immature to understand nuance and complexity. Who cares if both Hicks are "fakes"? Who cares if they make boatloads of money of "Abe"? Who cares if esther is making it all up? The information is interesting, timeless and useful. She simply presents age old precepts from a different angle. Jesus says the same stuff in the bible - When you pray believe your prayer is already answered....the kingdom of God is inside you...etc etc...Throw in William James... Emerson... even Shakespeare quietly pushed this stuff. Add marcus aurelius too. Add Oprah and Madonna to the preachers of the same ideas. But YOU have decided this one person making a living is a horrible fraud. I don't care if Esther Hicks is Imelda Marcos behind closed doors. Or if she is crazed and defensive. Or if Jerry and Esther handled Jerry's illness poorly. They are allowed to be whatever they are. Very few people create everything well.
ReplyDelete"Abe" gives good stuff. That people are too lazy to clean house before they throw their "I want" parties is not "Abe's" fault.
Reality check: You're envious. It oozes off this blog.
Work on your emotional intelligence. And learn to overhear yourself. You are PROOF good old Abe is right. Check it out. Look back at what you've focused on. Check the results. I bet they match up.
I am glad there is a place like your blog to bring sensible critiques to the forum and to the Hicks themselves. I am also amazed at your maturity that you let some of those posts above to show up unlike what is done in the forum :)
ReplyDeleteAnd one more thing, once you are in the forum and post anything you cant remove your posts or can get them removed leaving. so even if people may want to try or take a look, i wouldnt advice them to post, you wont be able to delete them while you were leaving. Thanks :)
this was a great way to end this blog. The blog itself is a perfect demonstration of loa and how the principles as taught by Esther/Abe and many others both current and in the past (ever read Joel Osteen's Your Best Life Now??) its the same stuff but with God instead of Source. (and btw he's 10 times richer than Esther and his wife assaulted an airline stewardess a few years ago, so god bless america!!) If you believe it, then it Must Be.... more evidence, more evidence, more evidence..... this blog is a perfect demonstration of that. Next ill read a blog that descibes the exact opposite viewpoint with just as much evidence and just as valid and just as "true." I truly am the creator of my own reality and am creating my own according to my own point of view. If you are pissed because you feel dupped by Abe, then its because you got yourself dupped by Abe. No one dupped you. As for it being a cult, well my boundary has always been the kool-aid: the minute that stuff rolls out, i'm gone!! Abe and LOA has given me a single truth that I honestly did not possess in my pysche before I heard Esther say it: MY HAPPINESS IS NO LONGER DEPENDENT UPON OTHERS CHANGING BEHAVIOR. Because of this I am now free and ill be honest, i've spent exactly $195. I listened to all free material and am going to my first conference in a week to tell Esther/Abe who the hell ever, "thank you." Thank you for saying it when you did, for some reason I was able to hear it from her. I realize now many many others had been trying to tell me that simple truth many, many times. I watch the folks in the seminars and there are definitely these personalities that keep showing up to these seminars that shouldn't be showing up to these seminars. In order to really get all there is out of Abe you really do need a "blazay squazay" attitude about life. If you're looking to make a Deity out of Esther, you are going to certainly be disappointed if not even emotionally traumatized. It just means this way of communicating/teaching isn't for you. That's all. No biggie. There are TONS of other people and other ways to get the same information, it ain't nothin new. Thank you for this forum. All is well.
ReplyDeleteMarch 11, 2014 at 10:09 AM
They also delete youtube comments. I left a comment on a video with glowingly positive comments saying I had followed the Abe Way for 5 years and don't recommend it. I cautioned that there is a lot of truth plus lies in what they teach, and that is dangerous. Anyway, it got deleted which explains why the video only had positive comments.
ReplyDeleteIt did also strike me as a red flag that free thought was censored on the Abe Forum when I noticed that. But at the time I found explanations that worked for me to excuse the creepiness of that. I am thinking for myself now, thankfully!